Be a real man!

[TeeDee]

I've tried to refrain from commenting on this thread.

But doesn't this all come down to basically ignoring older gender roles as current western society seems to desire ( right/wrong/indifference to that ) and just being a more self reliant individual ? regardless of gender.

 

[TLM]

and just being a more self reliant individual ? regardless of gender.

But, but that would be sensible.

 

[British Red]

I've tried to refrain from commenting on this thread.

But doesn't this all come down to basically ignoring older gender roles as current western society seems to desire ( right/wrong/indifference to that ) and just being a more self reliant individual ? regardless of gender.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having roles. Fiona and I certainly do. There are tasks that she normally does and tasks that I normally do. Some of that is based on physical attributes (I'm stronger so moving tree trunks is easier for me). Some is based on aptitude or developed skill (Fiona is a patient plumber h a job I hate). Some is just based on preference (I like baking bread). However I think it's important that, whilst Fiona does the morning livestock rounds most of the time, that I can do it and am practiced enough to take over.

I think all couples develop roles, but in a smallholding flexibility is critical. Nothing to do with gender really - just backups, but some guys do still seem to get foolish about tasks that were once "women's work" which is really not a great way to value your partner or keep the smallholding going.

 

[TLM]

I think all couples develop roles, but in a smallholding flexibility is critical. Nothing to do with gender really - just backups, but some guys do still seem to get foolish about tasks that were once "women's work" which is really not a great way to value your partner or keep the smallholding going.

This reminds me of times about 60 years ago when next to our cottage was a small farm at the time still practicing, a few cows some cultivated fields but all together not really enough. I remember helping there in hay fields and observing that basically in that family everybody could do almost all things required but the division of work was in practice more based on physical capabilities than gender roles. Lesson learned.

The other thing that came out was the preconceptions that they had about "town people". No problems there once you showed willingness to work and at least some sense.

 

[Pattree]

I've tried to refrain from commenting on this thread.

But doesn't this all come down to basically ignoring older gender roles as current western society seems to desire ( right/wrong/indifference to that ) and just being a more self reliant individual ? regardless of gender.

Quite!
…… but that it’s not typical of Western and many (most?) other cultures. It’s all very well to say “It’s a case of ignoring……”. Historical culture means that the ethical and practical importance of mutual support isn’t always sufficiently recognised that it can be ignored.

In cultures where the extended family is typical the stereotypical gender roles can persist as others step in.
It is only recently that homes have become more isolated and the issue has become visible.

I’m not going anywhere near the wider issue of patriarchal hierarchy and power structures.

 

[TeeDee]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having roles. Fiona and I certainly do. There are tasks that she normally does and tasks that I normally do. Some of that is based on physical attributes (I'm stronger so moving tree trunks is easier for me). Some is based on aptitude or developed skill (Fiona is a patient plumber h a job I hate). Some is just based on preference (I like baking bread). However I think it's important that, whilst Fiona does the morning livestock rounds most of the time, that I can do it and am practiced enough to take over.

I think all couples develop roles, but in a smallholding flexibility is critical. Nothing to do with gender really - just backups, but some guys do still seem to get foolish about tasks that were once "women's work" which is really not a great way to value your partner or keep the smallholding going.

Then on that point - I do and can agree.
So nothing to do with being a real Man. Or a real Woman Just a real life partner.

 

[TeeDee]

Quite!
…… but that it’s not typical of Western and many (most?) other cultures. It’s all very well to say “It’s a case of ignoring……”. Historical culture means that the ethical and practical importance of mutual support isn’t always sufficiently recognised that it can be ignored.

In cultures where the extended family is typical the stereotypical gender roles can persist as others step in.
It is only recently that homes have become more isolated and the issue has become visible.

I’m not going anywhere near the wider issue of patriarchal hierarchy and power structures.

I agree - probably best not to.

 

[oldtimer]

I think the problem is that there is a false hierarchy of roles clouding the issue. In our 62 years of living together, we have developed roles based on preference, biological difference and skills. Madame handles the financial affairs because she was once a bookkeeper whereas I am bored by bean counting. I chop the logs because I am bigger, stronger and more skilled with an axe, although the small house axe I use is the one she used as a girl before she met me. I do the cooking because I like doing it. I look after the vegetable patch, she does the flower garden. We had no choice as to who gave birth to our two sons, and she was much better at the nitty gritty of child rearing, and I went out work for the money to live on while she child-minded at home in the early years. I would suggest that all these roles are of equal importance and therefore worthy of equal respect.

Hugh and Fiona's current situation highlights another important issue; roles can change dramatically and unexpectedly because of circumstances. Flexibility and the ability and willingness to carry out a different role becomes paramount. In our own case, being in our 80s and consequent health issues has meant adjustment to our roles. For example, Madame can no longer drive, so I do the shopping.

Similarly, in the wider world, some jobs are seen as more important than others and gender roles ascribed to them muddy the waters still further. Refuse collectors, doctors, entertainers, engineers, farmers, teachers, administrators and entrepreneurs all have their roles in keeping the wheels of society turning. Who is to say which are more important than others? I think there is a case for saying that some roles are better suited to men and some to women, although I would not agree that anyone should be prevented from exercising their talents or preferences on the grounds of gender.

In my view, there is a confusion between sameness and equality. Men and women are not the same but they should be seen as equal and worthy of equal respect. Individuals or societies which regard men as superior to women are plainly wrong.

PS Get well soon, Fiona.

 

[Pattree]

Interesting that these two referendum questions were defeated today in Ireland.

One change could alter the definition of family to include those not based on marriage, while the other could remove reference to women in the home.

The Irish culture which includes heavy religious input may well have influenced this outcome but the Irish people that I know are as liberal in their views on this issue as those here in UK if not more so.

One of my sons in law was happy to put “House Husband” in two census forms.

 

[demented dale]

Probably superstition - knives must always be exchanged for coin

Interesting. thanks for that. I shall go and collect money tomorrow for all the knives i've given away. "Now I am rich, rich I tell you!"

 

[demented dale]

When it comes to roles and abilities I like to consider the peregrine falcon. The female is larger and more powerful. The male can be a third of her size. A male is known as a tiercal a tierce meaning one third in Latin. The female can kill large prey with her power but the male is very agile and maneuverable and can take smaller species. Both are capable of taking the entire prey range if need be but tend not to deviate from their roles unless they have to. Between them they make a cracking team not unlike Jack Spratt and his wife x

 

[MikeLA]

My gran said silver coin for anything sharp. If you don't you'll have sharp words! That was 5p or more. Either my gran was a bit too mercenary or inflation. Probably the latter because I was born early 70s so lived through the basket case economy years. Inflation was something I knew about in primary school, mars bars got put out of my price range by it!

Mars bars I am addicted to those things, thanks to my mum craving them while pregnant got to have one a day.

 

[MikeLA]

Makes sense to me. I like (live in) wool. You soon learn to wash it properly!

That brings back an army memory. We all shared the washing my mate gave his army kit to wash, my turn but didn’t tell me he had a lambswool jumper in the middle. In went the bungle with the XL Jumper. Out came a jumper that he said would fit his 5 year old. Still laughing 30 year later

 

[Paul_B]

Nope. It was probably 2.5p (sixpence) but could have been 1.25p as silver threepenny bits were still legal tender.

A lot of demobbed men wouldn’t do “women’s work” in those days. There was an enormous fear of looking stupid, looking ignorant or “weak”.

Nope I wasn't alive in the old money days so definitely 5p charge for anything sharp or pointed. She also insisted on nobody passing her sharp things too. You had to put the down near her for her to pick them up. Not sure if that was a safety thing or her thinking of racing us money by not having to give her 5p for passing the scissors!

 

[Paul_B]

I've heard about a value being put to the job of house wife/husband. If it was a paid role it should be worth a decent salary. Can't remember the figure but I've got 30 k pa in my head for some reason. I certainly think there's a real, value in that role. What's that quote?

"Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man." -Aristotle.

 

[dean4442]

I love cooking and enjoy doing the ironing of a weekend (stick some youtube videos on) plus I do a lot of the washing up due to my wife having a busy job. I also do a large chunk of the DIY but she does her fair share as well, honestly we're a partnership and although we could each do a large chunk of the others chores we tend to do the ones that we're best suited for. I still haven't convinced her that it's sexist that I have to go out into the rain to do the bins!!

 

[Paul_B]

I just keep "forgetting" to take the bins out so she'll do it. I only got that working once now I just get grief until its easier to get wet while doing it. I have to take it out back the down a flight of outside stairs in the dark! Mind you, the worst part is putting the liner bag in. Having to get the fold over edges to stay fixed so you don't end up with rubbish outside the bin bag l

 

[FerlasDave]