Banned dogs - thoughts

[demographic]

Just as a matter of interest, what are the actual figures relating to XL Bully attacks? Have they risen or is it just that they are in the media more?
As far as I'm aware they dont collate the information about dog breeds and just present the numbers as total dog attacks, do we know?
The last dangerous dogs legislation was pretty vague and could be interpreted in multiple ways, a bit like new knife laws to be honest.

With dogs you can get something that looks a certain way from many different routes and I don't know if anyone on bere has seen the genetic testing companies for dog breeds but I know of some people who got pups from the same eastern European rescue litter, got em genetically tested by different companies and ended up with VERY different results. Same litter.
To be fair, the one Ive seen looked pretty much like a Pointer to me.
I assume if the police do test breeds they use the company that gives them the result they want and if I had a dog at risk of that I'd be tempted to get a second or third opinion on the matter. I sure wouldn't trust the Metropolitan Police...


Oh, hang on theres more... yeah.... here it is.
I wouldn't trust the Metropolitan Police to do testing on a dog I loved.
Or to conduct an unbiased investigation either, oe even to police a womans vigil after one of the Met police had killed a woman.
Thinking on, I was maybe right the first time.

 

[Wander]

Just as a matter of interest, what are the actual figures relating to XL Bully attacks? Have they risen or is it just that they are in the media more?

This was on the radio only this morning.
Numbers were given but I can't recall them. But attacks by XL Bullys has risen over the last two years.
In brief, the number of attacks by XL Bullys is more than the number of attacks by all other dog breeds combined.
So not a media phenomenon, no.

EDIT: OK, found the programme.
You can listen to it here:

Today - 16/09/2023 - BBC Sounds

Including Sports Desk, Weather and Thought for the Day.

www.bbc.co.uk

The feature on the dogs starts at approx 1:34:40
The data on number of attacks is at approx 1:41 (though no source for the data is given)

 

[Wildgoose]

I have owned an aggressive dog, in my case a Belgian Terv.
He was a rescue and what caused him to be so unpredictable is not known. I took him to vets, trainers, behaviourists and 99% of the time was a loving dog, but that 1%…

To be a responsible owner take’s honesty. I knew he could be aggressive so I handled him as such. He was on s lead around people and other dogs, muzzled at the vet. I didn’t let children or strangers pet him etc.

My experience of other aggressive dogs differs though. People let them off at the park saying “he’s friendly” when he’s anything but. They can’t or won’t accept the risks they pose.

The most aggressive dogs I’ve met were terriers, thankfully any attempt to bite can be dealt with easily and in extremis the dog can be picked/dragged up and contained. A 50kg fighting dog cannot be controlled so easily and the injuries arising are heartbreaking.

I can’t see a ban working. We still have pit bulls in the uk.

 

[MikeLA]

Personally I think all dogs should be on leads by law

My youngest has been attacked by various breeds at least 4 times.

 

[Toddy]

Respectfully no - previous in the thread was mention of banning specific pedigree or canine genetics.

So is it the Dog owners fault or the Dog?
Is it the knife wielder or the Knife?

The problem becomes the association of violence. We're trying really really hard to dissociate knives from that.
So, bringing them into a violent dog thread is questionable.

 

[slowworm]

Personally I think all dogs should be on leads by law

My youngest has been attacked by various breeds at least 4 times

As a dog owner I wouldn't disagree with that, certainly in most public spaces. (I think there's room to allow dogs off leads in specific places as long as others are made aware).

Mind you, I wouldn't argue with a law saying children should be kept on a lead in public.

On a serious note, to those not aware, children should be taught to not approach dogs they dont know and especially not try and cuddle or lay on the dog. Our late lab had bad joints from an early age and didn't like being grabbed on the rear end, either by a child or another uncontrolled dog. She was also not keen on yappy little dogs running underneath her. She wouldn't attack anything but I've seen other dogs do so and it's not that dogs fault IMO.

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

@British Red

Ooof, can't be banning booze. The tax loss would be huge.

@Wildgoose
You've made a fantastic post. I really like your comment regarding honesty and it's so true. I know my dog is not the biggest fan of excited big dogs (typically males), if they come up to her all gung ho she doesn't respond well, especially when they stand over her, but I try to keep her out of others way and normally the bigger dogs are off like a shot when she responds. But dogs that are within the medium to small size range are 99% of the time totally fine, I know puppies are something she tolerates briefly, but is keen to put them in their place if they get a little too excited and if I'm aware the owner of a pup is very protective then again I move her on, if I know they're the sort of owner that knows pups need to figure out life, then I monitor the goings on.

I also know a really nice guy who has a couple rather large less than nice doggos and he fits your description exactly, they're walked on the lead and he warns people and purposely keeps his distance and often walks at hours that don't tie in with the most frequented hours.

 

[MikeLA]

As a dog owner I wouldn't disagree with that, certainly in most public spaces. (I think there's room to allow dogs off leads in specific places as long as others are made aware).

Mind you, I wouldn't argue with a law saying children should be kept on a lead in public.

On a serious note, to those not aware, children should be taught to not approach dogs they dont know and especially not try and cuddle or lay on the dog. Our late lab had bad joints from an early age and didn't like being grabbed on the rear end, either by a child or another uncontrolled dog. She was also not keen on yappy little dogs running underneath her. She wouldn't attack anything but I've seen other dogs do so and it's not that dogs fault IMO.

Two occasions were on a beach he was 3 years old the first time. All 4 times the dogs came to him. One I nearly came to more that words because he was laughing when the dog went for my son.

When I owned a dog I always put on the lead even on hillwalks when there was no one or no sheep around still on its lead. She was trained that way.

This summer seen people sun bathing on the beach while a dog owner let the dog go into their wind breaks and later **** just on the outer edge near the same family with young children playing, lovely.

 

[Paul_B]

Banning alcohol? Hmm! I could make a killing getting in my late great, great gran's sideline in the American prohibition era. Helped a lot that her clients were the town judge, police chief and other notable dignitaries. Her client list pretty much ensured she had no hassle from the law. Lol!

Crossbreeding has benefits if it is done for a good purpose, such as a hypoallergenic guide dog for a blind kid allergic to dogs. That's how the cockapoo got bred by an experienced dog breeder asked to help. Several generations to get beyond the problems created by crossbreeding. Then they became trendy dogs to have and breeders got involved without the responsible approach of the original breeder.

Bully dogs are a recognised breed in USA I believe though not by the AKC. Between 2021 and June 2023 they accounted for half the deaths caused by dogs at 10 deaths, however a bully watch group claims 14 deaths by this breed. It has been in this co try from about 2015 and numbers grew during lockdown apparently. It is becoming a bigger problem as more of them are bred and they will account for a higher proportion of dog caused deaths I bet as numbers increase.

Considering how many other bull type dogs and how recently they've appeared it does worry me how much of dog caused deaths they've had already. It does seem to me that this places the breed itself as a big problem. I mean imagine if 1000 dogs caused half the deaths despite the other attacks coming from breeds that might have 100,000 I the UK. Half the deaths from 1/100th of the breeds that caused the deaths. These last figures were made up to explain my worries about this breed. If half of all dog deaths came from a breed with 1000 dogs then imho get rid of the 1000 dogs. That's harsh for the responsible bully owners but still imho worth considering.

Failing that I wonder if we should make it the law that all fighting dogs, pitbulls, bull dogs, bullys etc have to wear muzzles be kept on a lead at all times when in public. No issues over whether it's a bully or banned breed. It's a type so muzzle it. Can they kill with a muzzle on? No then that'll save lives if enforced. Perhaps one instance of failure to do this it gets pts, owner gets a fine and a dog ownership ban. Also needs to be enforced.

Of course any law is useless without adequate enforcement. That's where these laws fail.

 

[slowworm]

This summer seen people sun bathing on the beach while a dog owner let the dog go into their wind breaks and later **** just on the outer edge near the same family with young children playing, lovely.

I agree with you, one of my pet hates is people not clearing up after their dog. As a dog owner one of the last thing I want is my dog to walk through other dog mess. I think anyone who doesn't clear up after their dog in public shouldn't be allowed to have one. Of course it's the owner's fault not the dog.

 

[Mike313]

In my opinion, dogs should always be muzzled and on a leash outside their dwelling/in any public space. Dogs should only be allowed off a leash in a private place, such as a private, well-fenced garden. Don't have a garden? Then you shouldn't own a dog . . . . .

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

I've just today read about another attack but apparently not an XL bully. It just reminded me of something I read a month ago about how now is the time lockdown puppies are reaching their sort of troublesome adolescence..
Makes me wonder if all this is somewhat coincidental, poor owners dogs are now acting out, with XL bullys just being the potentially meanest of the lot/in the hands of the completely wrong owners (due to the image) and now we're reaching that stage of troublesome behaviour and thats whats going on...

Especially given the restricted socialisation of these dogs (due to lockdowns etc)

@Mike313
I think its an interesting way to create very antisocial and potentially dangerous dogs. Dogs require socialisation, restricting their interaction to being "leads only" creates nervous and more dangerous dogs. I find a lot of dog owners that keep their dogs on tight leads and I see the dogs behaviour become worse and worse due to feeling nervous and restricted.

 

[Paul_B]

Owners create a lot of the problems dogs have. They pick up on their owner's emotions and can mirror them in a doggie way. Nervous owner with tight leash van create nervous dog which can perversely create aggression.

I was repairing a footpath alongside a canalised section of river. Barbed wire fence one side and river to the other. Here I was with tools working away when a dog and owner came along. The dog was scared, so was I despite knowing it was fear aggression. My issue was the dog breed was GSD and it was all teeth and aggression. Fire and thunder with vicious looking teeth. I moved tightly against the fence and with the owner between me and the dog it ran past quickly.

Meanwhile others in our group saw it coming and had bit right out of the way leaving me to face the dog that looked like those videos of police dogs just before they let it loose on a copper wearing a shellsuit pretending to be a bad guy with a very padded arm to offer the dog after running away for a token distance.

My point being that dog was intimidating but not aggressive in a bad way. It was fear and still dangerous but the owner and I knew how to behave and diffuse the situation.

 

[Bluebs4]

The problem becomes the association of violence. We're trying really really hard to dissociate knives from that.
So, bringing them into a violent dog thread is questionable.

So is it the Dog owners fault or the Dog?
Is it the knife wielder or the Knife?

I think you answered your own question. slippy vs machete in the wrong hands

 

[Laurentius]

I am generally of the opinion that the owners are the problem. It is very hard to say one breed is vicious and another is not. I was attacked some time ago by a large mastiff. I could have beaten the animal off but not without injuring it and I thought that the owner of the dog was more dangerous than the dog as they are people who whatever law you might make have no intention of keeping to it.

 

[Paul_B]

Beat a large mastiff off! I wonder if I could. Never been attacked by one so I have no experience to judge that. I'm 196cm and 90kg. I've done martial arts in the past, a few styles but would that make me able to defend myself from a truly aggressive large dog breed like a large mastiff.

Out of curiosity, mind if I ask what happened in that situation? Did you beat it off, did it lose interest or get called off by its owner?

 

[Paul_B]

I think that dog breeds can be dangerous but I think they can be made dangerous by the owner. Banning the dangerous breeds can help with taking out the first category but it doesn't help with the owner created dangers.

BTW looking into the American xl bully and recent UK dog attack death statistics I am coming to the opinion the breed is actually dangerous. Not just the capability but the aggression that is part of the breed. From what I read aggression against humans is discouraged by breeders involved in the show breed standard but aggression to other animals is not. Imho it is the same thing and a big issue. Encouraging and breeding in aggression of any sort, to humans or other animals, is a big problem with the breed.

I recall over my 50 years of existence there's been several breeds with a reputation for being a dangerous breed and caused deaths. Tabloid outrage of these devil digs over the years have led to various legislation. GSD, rotties, staffies, pit bulls and now American xl bullys. Since being labelled devil or dangerous dogs breeders have bred out aggression issues in GSD and rotties. I think staffies are under the same process.

I think if people are serious about a certain breed that's got an aggressive reputation they tend to breed a lot of it out of the breed. Certainly in the past. I'm not sure that's what will happen to modern dangerous breeds because they're being bred for different reasons these days. Less as pets and more for intimidation and threat potential. That's just my opinion.

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

.....must remain mature about those people saying they could be-...

I won't go there!

 

[Laurentius]

Beat a large mastiff off! I wonder if I could. Never been attacked by one so I have no experience to judge that. I'm 196cm and 90kg. I've done martial arts in the past, a few styles but would that make me able to defend myself from a truly aggressive large dog breed like a large mastiff.

Out of curiosity, mind if I ask what happened in that situation? Did you beat it off, did it lose interest or get called off by its owner?

I had an antler handled walking stick, enough to break bone or pierce skull, not that I would have wanted to do either, just deter the brute. The beast had seized my left wrist in it's jaw and would not let go. This on a path through a woods where dogs are not allowed.

 

[Paul_B]

Thanks, that explains it. Not sure unarmed I'd do that well, enough to survive. I reckon an aggressive 70 to 100kg male English mastiff or 55 to 80 kg female is not an easy fight for survival!

I'm slap bang in the middle of the male weight range. I reckon I'll be taken down pretty quick if unarmed. Scary thought really. I also doubt a male mastiff that wants to go will be held by a typical human, even a grown man! Perhaps that high potential for harm should have higher levels of control from muzzle, leads and licence that's checked up on.