Back To Nature. [Rewilding by Monbiot]
- Thread starter Dave
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I just read that this morning, personally i'd love to see it happen but i highly doubt it ever will sadly, camping in the wild where you are far from the top predator is way more entertaining than camping in UK as it is now, lying under your tarp wondering what that twig snapping noise was and the possible answer being bear/mountain lion/wolf pack is an amazing feeling
Yeh, I agree completely. 
I mean who are we to say they cant exist really?
Monbiots actually pro hunting, for food, and goes fishing off his kayak, for mackerel, then grills them on the beach. He's not the type that thinks carrots should have equal rights.
I mean who are we to say they cant exist really?
Monbiots actually pro hunting, for food, and goes fishing off his kayak, for mackerel, then grills them on the beach. He's not the type that thinks carrots should have equal rights.
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Oooh - fresh mackerel (and I mean fresh - just out of the sea) straight onto the BBQ/woodfire. An epicurean delight.
However, Monbiot tends to ignore one major fact - ie population. Reason the UK can sustain 60+ million people? Commercial farming, both here and overseas. THe noble savage myth is just that - a myth. Short, savage lives, horrific infant mortality, fluctuating between starvation and plenty, constant localised warfare.
In many ways, the joy he - and we - take from the wild is precisely because it is outside our "norm". To the savage, it was just like our cities, only more dangerous. He wouldn't have taken delight about a dolphin, instead worried that it would scare away fish he was depending on to keep his family alive for one more day. The fawn wasn't something to go "ooh - isn't he cute" over, instead seeing it as just a source of protein.
As to him being bored by civilisation - is he serious? Instant communications worldwide, knowledge available at the touch of a few keys, film, books, nature documentaries, travel at near the speed of sound? Medicine. THe wonders of science - does not everyone, for example, share my wonder that every atom in my - and your - body was actually created in the centre of a sun? We are all - in absolute fact - star-children!
However, Monbiot tends to ignore one major fact - ie population. Reason the UK can sustain 60+ million people? Commercial farming, both here and overseas. THe noble savage myth is just that - a myth. Short, savage lives, horrific infant mortality, fluctuating between starvation and plenty, constant localised warfare.
In many ways, the joy he - and we - take from the wild is precisely because it is outside our "norm". To the savage, it was just like our cities, only more dangerous. He wouldn't have taken delight about a dolphin, instead worried that it would scare away fish he was depending on to keep his family alive for one more day. The fawn wasn't something to go "ooh - isn't he cute" over, instead seeing it as just a source of protein.
As to him being bored by civilisation - is he serious? Instant communications worldwide, knowledge available at the touch of a few keys, film, books, nature documentaries, travel at near the speed of sound? Medicine. THe wonders of science - does not everyone, for example, share my wonder that every atom in my - and your - body was actually created in the centre of a sun? We are all - in absolute fact - star-children!
By the way, anyone interested in Science should see this - absolutely fascinating! http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...15-18-cosmic-dawn-the-real-moment-of-creation
The wonder of civilisation is that a hunter-gatherer could have access to the interner, for example. Theoretically pick and mix what you want from the wild and the urban. Slight problem of earning enough cash to pay for the chosen way of life but that is an interesting challenge in itself.
Fish for mackerel from a kayak, lovely. Work out how to build the equivalent boat and use it to fish for mackerel, untold delight.
Fish for mackerel from a kayak, lovely. Work out how to build the equivalent boat and use it to fish for mackerel, untold delight.
True enough, but considerably greater land areas. I'll have to read what this Monbiot fella has to say!
UK population is currently around the 65 million mark with a total of 94,058 square miles to work with.
Germany... 82 million with 137,903 square miles.
France... 64 million with 247,368 square miles.
The weird thing about the wolves is, and it is kind of fascinating, is that they were hunted to near extinction only a couple of decades a go, and now their numbers are increasing. From what I've read, they're moving further west with each year as well.
……and all those countries are joined up on a major landmass. We're not. We are on islands and island fauna is always on a sticky wicket when human populations grow.
M
M
Statistically, England (not the UK as there is plenty of space in Scotland!) is by far the most densely populated country in Europe (and increasing by 300,000+ per annum). During the hunter-gatherer era, its been estimated that the population was around 1-200,000, not the current 60,000,000. A slight difference I'm sure you'd agree! Whilst I would personally love to see, for example, the relatively useless and barren moors in England returned to dense oak forest (before England cut down all the trees to make wooden ships), the moors are vehemently protected by short-sighted "environmentalists" in order to keep them as they are.
However the basic point I'm making here is that we just don't have room in England to provide the trappings of civilisation for 60 million people along with the wild nature of Monbiot's dream. luckily he - and we - can travel to those parts of the world to see the "unspoilt" bits, courtesy of all the trappings of civilisation. Ironic but true!
Oh yeh. Im all for that. I go fishing in Wensleydale, or 'Wodens Meadow' as it once called, Woden of course being Odin, god of the wild hunt.
The Yorkshire Dales and North Yorkshire moors, are both roughly 750 square miles, but they are joned together without boundaries. So really twice the size of any other national park. It must have been truly magnificent. I look out of my window, up at Ilkley moor, where there are loads of mesolithic carvings, and stone circles, and think, they must have looked down on us, 3000 years ago, when it was forest, and gone hunting on my street for deer!
Even as late as the 6th century the yorkshire dales were in large part not christianised, but still pagan.
Ive often thought driving over the top of upper wharfedale and down into wensleydale, how magnificent it would be if they were still forested.
I dont think you'd ever even see a wolf in that much forest. Its good though they are starting with smaller predators like Lynx, then hopefully working up to larger apex predators.
There seems to be plenty of space and deer to justify introducing wolves back into Scotland. I think anyway.
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The BBC (my emphasis) said:
In this instance we have to assume the following etymology for environmental...
Environ - from the French, "environs de", translated as "close to" or "in the area of"
Mental - no translation required.
can you just imagine the furore if high-level predators were released into the UK? Bears, wolves, lynx would cause absolute havoc with the animal farming industry, as there would be very few locations where they could be effectively corralled. Lynx in Scotland causing widespread destruction amongst the grouse moors for example, or wolves amongst the Aberdeen Angus stocks! And the first time a dog was killed by such a predator, there would be widespread panic (what if that was my child?) and questions in Parliament.
Fearmongering?
On the entire North American Continent, from 1952 to 2002, since modern records began, there have only been 3 fatal attacks on human beings by Wolves.
I just have a deep down feeling, that we are poorer for not having these creatures,and I dont think that'll change.
I can understand the farmers argument, but farmers in other countries live with it.
I bet the tourist revenue, would outweigh the farmers reparations by far.
And they would mainly hunt the deer.
On the entire North American Continent, from 1952 to 2002, since modern records began, there have only been 3 fatal attacks on human beings by Wolves.
I just have a deep down feeling, that we are poorer for not having these creatures,and I dont think that'll change.
I can understand the farmers argument, but farmers in other countries live with it.
I bet the tourist revenue, would outweigh the farmers reparations by far.
And they would mainly hunt the deer.
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