Axe question for a Smithy.

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Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
9
Brigantia
A Smithy came round this morning to fix our gates and I happened to be carving a handle for an axe, which I showed him.

He concerned me a bit as he said it looked like my axe had suffered from a crack and been welded. :yikes:


It doesnt make sense to me, as surely a smithy would just heat up the steel again, rather than weld it?

You can see the different coloured steel, where the head is connected to the eye.

Whats going on there?

I havent bought a lemon have I?


 

Shinken

Native
Nov 4, 2005
1,317
3
43
cambs
It's difficult to tell, Polishing the whole thing would let you see if its been welded. But im sure you dont want to do that. Is it a wrought iron with steel edge?
 

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
9
Brigantia
Its a stefan ronnqvist axe.

I dont have any answers guys. Although I'd like an answer. I called the shop where i bought it. He doesnt know. I might send dave budd or someone similiar a pm, if nobody's got a definitive answer.
 

Stew

Bushcrafter through and through
Nov 29, 2003
6,467
1,301
Aylesbury
stewartjlight-knives.com
Drop Dave a note. He was at the same hammer-in as me where we watched Jim Austin forge an axe head with an asymmetric wrap. I'm pretty sure thwqt this is what has been done here.

If it is the case, then its not a crack but the end of the steel that has been folded and forge welded intok one piece.
 

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
9
Brigantia
Drop Dave a note. He was at the same hammer-in as me where we watched Jim Austin forge an axe head with an asymmetric wrap. I'm pretty sure thwqt this is what has been done here.

If it is the case, then its not a crack but the end of the steel that has been folded and forge welded intok one piece.

Ah right. Im not familiar with that term, or process. I'll look it up now. Thanks Stew. The guy at the shop mentioned 'forge welded' in a passing comment, but he didnt know either.

I was thinking there must be an innocent explanation...
 
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Everything Mac

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 30, 2009
3,112
83
36
Scotland
Even if it was an asymmetric wrap you wouldn't get a colour difference with the same steel now would you?

Looks too too me like it's been welded up. But I wouldn't say it's a lemon, there's no reason to think it's weaker or inferior. Just two tone, :p

*forge welding the eye is a relatively difficult process! why bother if you could just weld it and achieve the same thing?

Andy
 

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
9
Brigantia

But I wouldn't say it's a lemon, there's no reason to think it's weaker or inferior. Just two tone,
:p

*forge welding the eye is a relatively difficult process! why bother if you could just weld it and achieve the same thing?

Really? Dont you think if you're paying £135 for an axe head, and everyone else's is forged, yours should be forged? I dont know what to think now. :(

I know I wouldnt be happy if I just paid £245 for a gransfors viking axe , and it turned up and it had been welded.

Why wouldnt a smithy should just throw it away and start again? I dont get it.

I've just checked mine and it doesn't look like that.

Theres a part of me, that feels like sending it back, if I hadnt invested so much time and effort in a sheath and two handles.
 
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Shinken

Native
Nov 4, 2005
1,317
3
43
cambs
I wonder if the eye is wrought iron, not much experience with wrought but maybe it has patches that look different?
 

Dave Budd

Gold Trader
Staff member
Jan 8, 2006
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Dartmoor (Devon)
www.davebudd.com
I am almost 100% certain that is an electrically welded axe. The welding was done fron either side of the blade, creating a classic V-shaped filling of rod/wire. You can also see where the two V's touch in the centre, this is bad in welding circles coz it's not 'full penetration' and is a sign of a potentially weak joint, though the amount of weld material (and surface contact with the metal either side) is massive enough that its not likely to be a problem. The side view also has a dark line (void) running about 1/4" from one side to the other, this is the edge of a weld bead where it has not been fully filled by the next bead along. The colour of the band looks very low carbon compared to the stuff ether side, suggesting that the material is a formerly molten blob of mild steel (loses carbon in the process), the sides are still likely mild though unless the blade is much darker than the eye side

I know of at least one 'historical' smith who makes stuff for reenactors and does that when making axes. Rather than punching the eye through a solid block and then drawing the blade from it, or wrapping and welding (even the asymmetrical method mentioned), this bloke starts with heavy walled pipe and welds a bit of plate to it, then forges the blade from that and drifts the eye to the right shape.

If the welding is good and he normalised the welds well (which would happen during the forging anyway), then the axe should be solid enough to not fail on you. But, apart from the fact that it is a crummy cheat of a method that looks ugly he has most likely welded a mild steel blade to a mild steel socket. So unless for some reason he went to extra lengths to weld on spring steel as the blade, that thing won't hold an edge (also, if he can't won't make the axe properly, what do you think the chances of him using the right steel and then heat treating it properly are?). He could have constructed the head like this and then firewelded a good steel edge on, but then why not fireweld the eye too? If its an electrically welded edge (seen that too!), then you will see the same discolouration across the blade where the edge is fitted

if it were a fire weld then if you can see anything at all then it will appear as a fine white line (flux left in the weld zone leaching out) or a fine dark line (a flaw where the pieces haven't actually joined). This will appear down the cetnre of the blade when viewed from the top on a conventional bowtie construction, or stating in the middle at the eye and drifting off to the blade a couple of inches down if asymmetrical. Wrought iron is fibrously looking like wood and the welds tend to blend in much better than mild steel, but you can see the way the fibres change direction on a polished piece (like a patch on a sheet of plywood).

welding an eye is not that tricky, I've taught a blind man to do it because it was more likely to succeed for him than punching. With wrought iron it is also less likely to fail during manufacture than a punched one too actually. If a man is calling himself a smith then he can fire weld, no ifs no buts, it is just another skill that you need. wrapping and welding an eye is faster and less expensive than electrically welding a tube on. If I made an axe by the traditional methods then the eye would take 10mins to punch tops, 20mns to weld (assuming I'm not doing a pretty job as Jim Austin does, but even then, not too long) or maybe an hour to do the 'modern way (you have to scarf the joins, weld, clean the beads of scale, keep welding until full, grind off the excess, normalise the weld so it doesn't crack when I then dress with a hammer in the forge). The old methods only consume a little more fuel and steel in the making, the modern one consumes fuel, electrodes/wire (likely 4-6 rods!), grinding discs, electricity as well as being much worse for you health! Sod that I'm a blacksmith, I'll make the eye the old fashioned way!
 
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Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
9
Brigantia
Many Thanks for that Dave, its most appreciated.

If youre appraisal is acurate I dont know why a respected blacksmith would risk their reputation by sending out shoddy completely unacceptable axes.

I dont know if Matthew at Woodlandcraftsupplies knew there was a big difference between the axe I received and the other axes he sent out....

It seems pretty obvious at a glance to me. Irritating as I was waiting a long time and I specifically asked him to send me a good one out....

I spent a couple of days, sourcing wood, carving handles, and making a leather sheath for this....I aint a happy bunny.

I'll be ringing him tomorrow, and post an update on how it turns out.

Thanks again Dave.
 

Dave Budd

Gold Trader
Staff member
Jan 8, 2006
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to be fair, if he did put a proper steel edge in (and heat treated it right), then it would likely still be strong enough to be OK. It's just a really nasty way of doing something that has been worked out over 2 and a half thousand years.
 

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
9
Brigantia
I dont know if Matthew at Woodlandcraftsupplies knew there was a big difference between the axe I received and the other axes he sent out....

Apparently mine was one of three, from the last batch Matt received which looked the same as mine, so he's onto Mr Ronnqvist, to find out why.

He sent me a photo of the other two.

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heath

Settler
Jan 20, 2006
637
0
45
Birmingham
I've just had another look at mine (outside of my dingy garage), and I can see the same thing on mine. Mine was one of the first batch that was being sold over here over two years ago, so I don't think you've got a faulty one, I just reckon that's how he does it. I know that Matthew is trying to get in touch with Stefan to ask him about it, but he is notoriously difficult to communicate with. The bottom line is it works great and has a great reputation as a carving axe, so I'm happy with mine.
 

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
9
Brigantia
I spoke to Matthew on Friday, and he's refunding me in full...

In my opinion, as Dave Budd said above, its a crummy cheat of a method. And the two other blacksmiths Ive shown this axe to have said basically the same thing.

Matthew has been fine to deal with, and I'll post an update, as and when he keeps his promise to refund me for the axe.
 
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Clouston98

Woodsman & Beekeeper
Aug 19, 2013
4,364
2
26
Cumbria
I spoke to Matthew on Friday, and he's refunding me in full...

In my opinion, as Dave Budd said above, its a crummy cheat of a method. And the two other blacksmiths Ive shown this axe to have said basically the same thing.

Matthew has been fine to deal with, and I'll post an update, as and when he keeps his promise to refund me for the axe.

That's a shame about the axe- I really liked the look of it. Good on Matthew though.
 

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