Another one who didn't listen

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greensurfingbear

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
serios question who whould have the power to send him back

No one can I guess.

Best that could happen is someone would have seen him and offered some advice and he might have listened. I've done it myself when solo hiking in the hills of Norway. I caught up with a group trudging thought knee deep snow to discover a they were in jeans and trainers no map or anything. They weren't Norwegian and only one of them spoke english. I wasn't rude just said that I thought it maybe a good idea to not go any further and showed them all the kit I had. They listened and went back, but I guess if they hadn't listened there wasn't any way i could stop them.

This chap got lucky, imagine knowing an area so well you know how to locate them by the sound of running water.




Orric
 

Squidders

Full Member
Aug 3, 2004
3,853
15
48
Harrow, Middlesex
The Mountain rescue teams can only advise, I think the frustration this team leader showed is very understandable.

I actually don't think the team leader should show frustration, I think he should feel it and then voice his grievance onto his line manager. Imagine if everyone went to the press when they have to deal with someone they think is wrong/foolhardy/a danger to themselves or others.

There wouldn't be room for the astrology thing!

If I were to go mouthing off about the people I assist to the press I would probably get fired, no my job isn't life and death but still, be a professional, show a little british reserve.

The person being rescued did not equip himself for success and if his luck held out he could have got away with it however it did not and he required rescue from the hill in pretty ropey conditions.

I wasn't aware that risk is actively encouraged in play groups but it makes sense. The point is that different people need different risk, if a billionaire wants to try and balloon around the globe to get his jollies we're all for it because he has lots of support and teams being paid lots to bail him out but it can't be all about money.

Even plebs like me need our quota of risk, mine is sky high for most things - my normal is most peoples terror and it's depressing because I live in a dreary boring sad world as far as my needs are concerned. I have to introduce drama just to feel alive sometimes. I'll be nearly late for flights and really import meetings to get a fleeting feel of it.

I'm not saying the person being rescued felt like that, for all I know he was probably the village idiot - i'm just saying that it's so hard to explain to some people what you need as a human. I'm not talking about want but genuine needs for living. Applying rules based on the norm is just so unfair - It's why we're so concerned about rules regarding knife carry and why the norm don't care about it.
 

Squidders

Full Member
Aug 3, 2004
3,853
15
48
Harrow, Middlesex
I think this thread has got to me a bit so i'm going to stop my ranting soon (I promise!)

What worries me most is that, yes he could have had some basics with him... one of those orange survival bags and a head torch for example.
.. But how do you police that?

No, the more people that get all up in arms, the more likely the various agencies are to just ban access to these areas. Regardless of our feelings, that's how our government works - if something is not good for you it's bad for you and if something is bad for you, you must be stopped. You can blame the individual who gets into trouble in the hills or you can blame the masses from overreacting when access is taken away when the weather is less than perfect. The person being rescued could have been mentally unstable and off medication for all we know, do we want laws and rules based on these exceptions? People do listen when enough people get shouty as the outdoor community is about things like this..
 
I have had people cross paths with me on Nevis in denims and pumps in the snow before. They had icicles on their hair, no backpacks, hats or gloves.

It is up to the individual what they take and wear and how they approach the task but it saddens me to think of the volunteers who put their lives on the line when things go wrong.
 
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jiffi

Nomad
Jun 24, 2010
312
0
Castle Douglas, Scotland
Well as a former member (out until knee repairs) of a mountain rescue team I fully sympathise with the team leader! No its not the boys banding together but the voice of knowing the difference the "proper" not expensive gear can make and limit the amount of damage done. The fact alone he went out in trainers is beyond me did he not realise when his feet got cold. Then going out without a torch stuns me how many of us carry a torch even just walking the dog. Now I want to say that this is my personal opinion and nothing to do with my affiliation to MRT or my training but my observations over the years I have been a walker/climber/woodsman!
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,989
4,638
S. Lanarkshire
I do take the point about the way that justifiable concerns somehow suddenly seem to *need* to be *licenced* :rolleyes: when really all they need is a healthy injection of common sense and a little personal responsibility.

My brother calls it the Clyde effect.
It goes like this;
"Wee Johnny fell in the Clyde!! " = "Quick, fill it in, it's dangerous !!" :rolleyes:
No mention of swimming lessons being a good thing though.

Yes, risk is a part of good play :) It's a good way to encourage judgement and personal risk assessment.
Guess this fellow didn't get it at playgroup then :sigh:

Toddy
 

presterjohn

Settler
Apr 13, 2011
727
1
United Kingdom
Off topic slightly but this kind of event reinforces my opinion that for the UK a "survival kit" is a first aid kit with something to help prevent hypothermia or exposure. You get so many people carrying loads of huge knives, fishing kits, snares and even arrow heads which might be handy in the jungle but not around here.
 

Rockmonkey

Settler
Jan 12, 2012
743
2
uk
You can't stop accidents happening, but you can take out some of the risk by being prepared, unlike this lucky man, sorry, i meant Stupid, brain dead, ignorant muppet!
The mountain rescue leader was being polite in my opinion!
Crampons, ice axe, torch, orange life bag etc, it's in the title "Winter mountaineering gear".
If i take none of this when i go to scotland, lake district, wales, and the swiss/french alps in winter, the only way i would make it home, is in a body bag!
The fire brigade would not be happy if someone had a BBQ in the middle of the lounge! Same thing as far as i'm concerned!
God damn muppet!

RM
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
78
Cornwall
Cheap television such as Helicopter Heroes is full of "properly" equipped walkers, horse-riders, cyclists, motorcyclists (one was a paramedic in his time off!) hurting themselves. It may not be statistically significant but I cannot recall seeing a "badly" equipped casualty being flown off the hills etc. Cannot see the presenter missing the chance of a homily if they did deal with such a patient. Not an argument for not taking care and I am in favour of public eduaction but we all can have motes in our eyes.
 

Squidders

Full Member
Aug 3, 2004
3,853
15
48
Harrow, Middlesex
OK, here's another thing... Here is a torchlit flat meadow covered in snow:





And here is a torchlit rock formation that will break your leg covered in snow:




Notice how they both look like white snow. Seriously and all sarcasm aside, from experience, unless they started making torches that see through snow, what use is one in avoiding falling between rocks and twisting something? Torches are nice for seeing detail or finding dog poo in the dark but stuff under hidden under a good layer of snow is going to get you no matter what.

And good boots are often the difference between straining your ankle and straining your knee or hip often you're going to get hurt if your foot falls into something regardless of your clothing. The report says the man hurt his leg... nowhere does it state that it was his foot or ankle.

I am aware of how I have been contrary to many peoples opinions so far but name calling annoys me. So far only a few people can seem to see both sites, one of them being Toddy. We all assume the team put their lives on the line but I didn't read in the article that the team thought they were a gonner at any time. We always assume their life is on the line and I have no doubt there are times but not every time, there's just no way they dodge the grim reaper on every single search and rescue.

From the information presented to me in the article, firstly I was wrong when I said the man wasn't lost, he was in a known area just off a path after getting lost, I take my bit about that back but still, the only difference I can see that does not involve complete speculation is that if the man had better equipment he would have been warmer and not missing a shoe. I imagine that even with decent walking equipment you're not going to last a full night up there anyway. and if you carry equipment to last you a night, you're probably heavy enough that you will slow down and prove yourself right by taking over a night.

In climbing, it's called "light and lucky" for good reason... sometimes "fast and fu..." nevermind :p

The team leader even admits "
The thing is, so many people get away with it every year," excuse me??? get away with it??? Generally when loads of people do something with no ill effects and a few have a problem, it's generally considered ok. you know, like swimming... so many people get away with it every year. Those that nearly drown should have had flotation suits on and have no right being in the swimming pool. The lifeguard risked his life jumping in to pull the kid out, don't they know humans are supposed to stay on land?

AHHHHH RAGE!!!

This John Stevenson is probably a really decent man though and I feel bad for arguing against the article, why did he have to be all ranty? I want the emergency services to be heroes not executioners of joy. Superman caught people in mid air with nothing more than a witty quip about not falling from a building next time.

 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
Good job his phone worked and he was rescued :)

I started hill walking with my School in 1966, there were ill equipped walkers then in need of rescue and there are ill equipped walkers now, nothing has changed other than modern technology perhaps helping, in my day we had a whistle and sometimes a flare, now we have mobile phones et al, ignorance is the same, the technology has changed.
 

DaveWL

Forager
Mar 13, 2011
173
0
Cheshire, UK
I can sypathise with the MRT leader - if nothing else I imagine each time someone dies up there it's going to hit him and his whole team hard. They may be volunteers but every time I speak to an MRT member what comes across is the very real responsibility they feel for the mountain and the safety of those up there (whether they've been called out or not).

What got me in that article was this bit :

I knew the only place on the top half where you can hear water running like that is the Red Burn


Thank heaven for the knowledge and experience these guys have built up over the years. Can't be replaced by a couple of weeks course and a GPS ....
 

Elen Sentier

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
You've got to think big fines should be brought in for instances like this.

Glad he made it out okay

I agree! Risking the lives of the rescuers is not on! And clots like this need a smack round the ear to wake them up. The team leader's comments were mild and very well deserved. Not sure I am glad he made it out ... what if he's learned nothing and does it all over again, and some rescuers get hurt or killed because of him ???
 

DaveWL

Forager
Mar 13, 2011
173
0
Cheshire, UK
AHHHHH RAGE!!!

This John Stevenson is probably a really decent man though and I feel bad for arguing against the article, why did he have to be all ranty? I want the emergency services to be heroes not executioners of joy. Superman caught people in mid air with nothing more than a witty quip about not falling from a building next time.


Easy to start ranting when stuff frustrates you isn't it :)

In this case I honestly think it is in the interests of everyone that wants to use the mountain that the MRT has a bit of a rant. Bearing in mind what I said above about the responsibility these guys feel for the safety of people on the mountain - in this one instance an individual did so much that is counter to their recommendations for safely going up the mountain in winter that it should be advertisied to lessen the chances of others doing the same.

I agree that the language and tone of the article is preachy - but I think its intent is right.​
 

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