Advice on surplus clothing

[unit392]

Hi folks,

I'm looking to get myself some camo clothing to blend in better while out in the woods. I found a local surplus store where they sell both DPM and MTP at fairly reasonable prices. If it were only the colour to consider, I'd definitely take DPM, but I hear it a lot that army-issue DPM clothing was made of low-quality fabric, and it rips easily. As I live in Central Europe, I can't get firsthand infromation on it, only what's available on the internet (and it is not much). So which one would you recommend?

Also, I thought of getting the MTP and making it more woodland-looking with some olive spray-paint. (Fosco brand) If anyone has used spray-paint for such purposes, I'd be grateful for any advice or tips.

 

[DurhamBushcrafter]

Hi, in my opinion, and it is only, my opinion, stay away from cammo dpm jackets, look for swedish or norwegian, flat gray/green jackets, they will be much warmer and more heavy duty. also they blend in better without making you look like you are an action man.
i know many do love their DPM, i used to.......but im older n wiser now....
the DPM stuff knocked out in the army stores for the cadets n stuff is usually 'Meh..' quality but genuine surplus is as tough as a tough thing.

eBay is your friend.......

 

[The Lord Poncho]

Genuine DPM surplus will be reasonably good quality (with the possible exception of the early 1990s stuff), and will be no more likely to rip than any other fabric of a similar thickness. As a camouflage pattern DPM is good, but only if you propose to spend your time entirely in dark, heavily vegetated woodland. Anywhere else, or open woodland, and you will find it is too dark a colour scheme - and disappears into a dark coloured 'blob' at any real distance. In most environments MTP is a far more effective pattern. MTP kit (certainly that from the latest PCS range) is also better designed as well (smocks with shrouded buttons, fleece hand warmer pockets etc).

 

[caorach]

I love my old DPM and think that the DPM windproof smock, which you can sometimes pick up on ebay for £10, is as good as it gets for woodland and outdoor type activities. However, if you really do want cammo so that people and animals can't see you then MTP is a better cammo pattern for MOST environments except for deep dark woodland.
In terms of quality then the new MTP windproof smocks have a lot more "features" that for the most part are simply a pain as the fleece pockets hold water and the mesh lining gets caught in zips and I've no idea what pit zips are for when you can just open the jacket and... In my view the older DPM had less to go wrong and the zips seemed more reliable and better quality as well. Despite saying that I wear both quite a lot, when I'm chasing deer the MTP does offer an advantage in terms of not getting seen.

 

[unit392]

Thanks for the quick replies guys, I think I'll go with the MTP, as nearby woods aren't too thick or dark and I can still paint or dye it if it was too bright. As for plain olive clothing, getting some good quality pieces 'round here is far from easy, if you believe me, so I won't waste my time with it.

 

[copper_head]

Have a look at German Army Flecktarn stuff. It's excellent camo and very durable, maybe more readily available to you?

 

[MikeLA]

Try and British Army Lightweights (Green). Great trousers

 

[unit392]

Have a look at German Army Flecktarn stuff. It's excellent camo and very durable, maybe more readily available to you?

Wow, you're saying something... I focused so hard on getting some info on the DPM and MTP that I forgot to look for other stuff. But indeed, flecktarn is good camo, and BW clothing might be available in plain olive as well. I'll go to the store tomorrow and check it, thanks for the tip!

 

[caorach]

flecktarn is good camo,

I did some testing on different cammo patterns by taking photos of a lot of patterns against different vegetation backgrounds. The photos were also processed to "imitate" deer vision, or at least as best as we understand deer vision, so the tests were done for both human and deer vision.

The patterns included MTP, DPM, flecktarn, plain brown, plain green, tweed and some of the modern "photo realistic" patterns. For me MTP came out best on the sort of ground I spend my time on but flecktarn was a very good pattern indeed and for general use I'd say it was joint first with MTP in the sense that there were a few places where MTP was useless, and a few where flecktarn was useless, but they were pretty good most places.

Here's some examples so you can make up your own mind, this is flecktarn (stood up on a bush) plus some "mossy oak" type plus MTP in a thicket in "deer eyesight" colours:



This is the same image in human vision mode, i.e. full colour:




This is it with the MTP "stood up" on a bush and the others laid over humps and vegetation, as you might be crouched down etc for example:




This is them on clear fell, the flecktarn is next to invisible here but again this is "deer vision" mode:



This is the same shot in human vision:



This is them on heather moorland type ground:



On the ground against rough grass with a dark forest background, again simulating someone lying down:



And this is them in a differing positions against woodland and grass:







Just for reference this is brown, dark green, tweed and MTP in a thicket:

 

[tiger stacker]

Beware of the sizing on the mtp, due to mk1/2/3 versions jackets can be tight under the arms.
DPM has so many hooded or collar only jackets it can be fun picking what you like. The old jungle jacket is worth looking out for.

 

[Jack Bounder]

Hey, those photos are really rather useful.

 

[caorach]

Hey, those photos are really rather useful.

I'm glad you find them useful, I shot them over a few days when I was out and about just for some fun really but it was interesting. Of course the bottom line is that if you are stupid and don't adapt your behaviour to the ground then no cammo will ever work for you - MTP works well on lighter coloured ground so if you were to put on MTP and stand in dark forestry you need to expect it not to work. There is no magic bullet.

One thing I will say though is that a lot of people are more than willing to charge you a fortune for their "special" cammo pattern that, they say, works like magic. I think it would be unwise to assume that they have more money to spend on research than the US military and the military came up with Crye Multicam, or at least funded and assisted Crye to come up with it, on which MTP is based.

Also, as I'm sure you are aware, the "deer vision" images are based on what we suspect deer vision might be like, deer have no red sensors in their eyes and so I removed the red from the images. My experience is that deer eyesight is totally different in every way from ours in both what it sees and also how their brain processes it, so it amounts to a best guess and may be completely wrong.

Here is some more, including some DPM and MTP and shows just where the DPM works well, bearing in mind that this is taken from a few yards away in full daylight with the coats fully exposed, you can see that with a tiny bit of thought and effort plus standing still the DPM would vanish in this environment but it isn't a good spot to hide in MTP, however as you can see in some of the photos above the MTP just vanishes in a thicket of lighter vegetation:



This is MTP, "mossy oak" type, and flecktarn against commercial sitka forest floor and I think you can see that all of them could be made to work in this situation if you were to get into the shade in the MTP but the flecktarn is really very good indeed:





This is DPM laid down with MTP stood up in "deer vision" and you can see that in this situation the DPM turns into a solid dark blob whereas the MTP actually does quite well:



And this is MTP "lying down" with the "mossy oak" type pattern standing up in the same place but this time in human vision:



Now flecktarn and MTP in the same place - you can see that if the flecktarn was to move back into the trees slightly and if the MTP were to move into the shadows but stay on the dead grass then both of these would work well:



This shows that solid green and brown don't work as well as a "pattern" as this is MTP stood up with brown, tweed and green (L-R) on the ground:



Stand the green up and add a bit of sunlight and it really does show why solid colours give you a disadvantage if you want to remain unseen, it is MTP, brown and tweed (L-R) on the ground:

 

[santaman2000]

....... There is no magic bullet.

One thing I will say though is that a lot of people are more than willing to charge you a fortune for their "special" cammo pattern that, they say, works like magic. I think it would be unwise to assume that they have more money to spend on research than the US military and the military came up with Crye Multicam, or at least funded and assisted Crye to come up with it, on which MTP is based.......

Agreed, there's no magic bullet that fits all environments.

Regarding the US R&D budget and results, it's worth noting that all US camo patterns developed within the last 2 decades have received wide criticism from soldiers in the field as being ineffective. The only exception being the Marines' Marpat. The lack of complaints about it might be truly due to it's effectiveness or it might also be due to the wearers pride in service. At any rate congress is expressing frustration at the expense of the services making separate studies and so far only one has come up with a satisfactory result. Said budget is likely to be curtailed.

 

[Disco1]

I remember we would buy our own gear because the issued items were to say the least sh*t. This included DPM items, webbing, rucksack, boots etc.

 

[santaman2000]

I remember we would buy our own gear because the issued items were to say the least sh*t. This included DPM items, webbing, rucksack, boots etc.

Sorry to hear that. While we've had complaints about the effectiveness of the color patterns, generally quality has always been good here for field gear and uniforms. One exception was a problem with the boots for a short period in the early 90s.

For dress uniforms the fit and appearance has always been better with the commercial ones but those are really only cosmetic issues.

I suppose in a sense the camo pattern is a "cosmetic" issue but one in which the cosmetics have a direct bearing on usefulness.

 

[caorach]

I remember we would buy our own gear because the issued items were to say the least sh*t. This included DPM items, webbing, rucksack, boots etc.

First of all I have to say that I'm not a soldier, have never been one and have no intention of pretending to be one so my perspective is totally different.

I'm out usually around 100 days per year in Ireland and Lewis in the Hebrides, so I'm not wandering around some field in the south of England for 15 minutes per year looking for another £1,000 waterproof outfit to buy for next season.

I have a lot of jackets and waterproof stuff but have settled on the combination of windproof smock with a surplus goretex jacket for wearing under it, as designed, when it gets really wet. I find that this works very well indeed for my needs, better than the £400 jackets I have which mostly stay in the house these days. Wearing the smock most of the time, even in light rain, actually keeps me drier and warmer than wearing a waterproof layer all the time, which is just common sense.

The other side to this is that I have never found waterproof trousers to beat Harkila and won't even look at the surplus stuff.

The DPM stuff I have (mostly windproof smocks) has been good and the windproof smock is just ideal for me. However, the quality of construction of the MTP stuff isn't great and I replace the zips almost as a matter of course without even trying them, though not all are bad to be honest. Also I think they've made the new MTP smocks too "fussy" with linings and fleece bits and zips everywhere and so on. That's fine in something you are trying to sell in a shop but most of that stuff has downsides which become a pain.

I've also been trying the new surplus boots, I have the Haix ones, and they are really quite good as well. I currently have 7 pairs of boots on the go and while the Haix weren't as comfortable out of the box and took a little breaking in they seem well constructed and well designed and I would say the quality is up there with boots costing 5 or 6 times the £50 that I paid for them.

So, while I can't argue with your experiences and am sure you are completely correct in what you say my recent experiences have been positive, generally speaking, and for some applications (jackets especially) the mil surplus stuff is now my "go to" gear. My experience with the Haix footwear has also been very positive.

 

[Disco1]

Completely different to lugging rucksack with 50-60 lbs mostly ammo and few other things. We did not have the luxury of sticking to paths going over bridges etc. The clothes would fall to piece's, the wet weather would enter on the seams. The old canvas webbing would suck water up like a sponge, everything in your rucksack would be wet. thermo properties were also bad. Really bad.

 

[Adze]

I've got a flecktarn parker and some trousers bought from these guys: http://www.flecktarn.co.uk and they're very hard wearing - I managed to cut a pocket of the parker accidentally, but I've not managed to rip either of them and I'm quite hard on clothes.

 

[santaman2000]

Completely different to lugging rucksack with 50-60 lbs mostly ammo and few other things.........

......The old canvas webbing would suck water up like a sponge, everything in your rucksack would be wet. thermo properties were also bad. Really bad.

-That weight seems pretty light for a military load. By about half.

-Canvas? How long ago were you in? Or when did the UK start replacing canvas? I first enlisted almost 40 years ago and even the old gear was synthetic.

 

[MikeLA]

I remember we would buy our own gear because the issued items were to say the least sh*t. This included DPM items, webbing, rucksack, boots etc.

I liked them all including the Mk1 boots, Still wear them if i could. The only think I bought was a sas/para bergan, instead of the over head 58 ptn bergan or was it a pouch. Even the webbing wasnt that bad. Believe me I have just thrown mine out last week after a massive clearout. I had added a rollpin belt and an extra waterbottle pouch only
Remember the good quilted suit, the JHW. was never that cold in the field that it bothered me