A Fallkniven, Cold Steel puzzle.

[Gonzo]

Here's something that's been puzzling me lately:

Casually scrolling through Heinnie Haynes website, I noticed the striking similarity between Fallkniven knives and a few Cold Steel knives. Namely the F1 to the Master Hunter, the S1 and A1 to the SRK, and the Thor to the Trail Master.

After a bit of searching I found a couple of blade forums that suggest Fallkniven used to import Cold Steel knives.
Indeed, on Fallkniven's own website they say they 'started operations in 1984' and 'began to develop our own knives in 1987'.

The Fallkniven F1 is regarded by many as a great outdoors knife. According to the blurb, it took '8 years to develop', and 'is the official survival knife for pilots within the Swedish Air Force since 1995.'
(Presumably therefore, it was one of the first knives they decided to manufacturer back in 1987.)

What I'm wondering is, did they pinch the design from Cold Steel's Master Hunter? Surely that didn't take eight years?

Of course the materials are different, and the Fallkniven knives (from what I can tell) are regarded of a better quality than Cold Steel.
Perhaps they 'borrowed' the designs and made better knives?

Complaints about the F1 seem to mainly focus on the handle being too small or thin, and the lanyard hole in wrong place. Yet the CS Master Hunter (a very similar design) has a larger handle and lanyard hole set further back, yet I never see anyone discuss it.

Personally, I will never buy anything made by Cold Steel as I've seen You Tube videos with the owner Lynn Thompson, who appears to have a Rambo complex and is clearly still working through issues left over from his school days. They do make me laugh though.

Was curious if anyone else had thoughts on this.

 

[HillBill]

Did the Master Hunter come before the F1? Perhaps cold steel are copying fallknivens designs?

 

[Gonzo]

Hey HillBill,

That was my first thought, but I can't find any info on the F1 existing before 1995, apart from the 'eight years in development' line.

The Master Hunter, SRK and Trail Master (the three knives that look like Fallknivens) are all in the Cold Steel 1993 catalogue.
A PDF is viewable on Google by searching 'Cold Steel Master Hunter 1993'.

There is a 25 year anniversary blade stamp on a 3G F1 saying '1984-2009', but this must be the anniversary of the company, not design, as they say they didn't begin to develop their own knives until 1987.

If they were developing the F1 with feedback from the Swedish Air Force, and it finally entered service in 1995, I wonder how CS (if they copied Fallkniven) got hold of the design a couple of years before?

Would be very interested if anyone can set the record straight.

In meantime I'll keep looking...

 

[HillBill]

Most cold steel stuff is "Based" on something else... copies, repro's etc... fallknivens stuff tend to be their own designs for the most part. From what i can tell anyway.

British blades would also be a good place to post the question i think. More general knife knowledge on there than here.

 

[Gonzo]

I will pop over to British Blades and post there too.

I have found on Bladeforums.com a correspondence between a user and Peter Hjortberger from Fallkniven, where Peter is quoted replying:
'Since 1999, when the A1 was released, we have seen...'

As mentioned, the Cold Steel SRK (which the A1 and S1 closely resemble) appears in the 1993 catalogue.

 

[Ruud]

I don't think one knife is copied from the other, the F1 has distinct features which the Cold Steel knives don't have:
- convex grind
- other steel
- other handle material
- protruding handle on the back for hammering

The thin handle was purposely kept quite slim to make the knife easier to handle with big gloves on.

 

[homesicksteve]

I don't think one knife is copied from the other, the F1 has distinct features which the Cold Steel knives don't have:
- convex grind
- other steel
- other handle material
- protruding handle on the back for hammering

The thin handle was purposely kept quite slim to make the knife easier to handle with big gloves on.

Spot on Mr. Ruud

Of course, there's also the 'both made in Japan' question.....

 

[pysen78]

I remember when Fällkniven was the "new" thing here in Sweden. A lot of talk on the "airforce survival knife" F1. I remember it to be later than 1987 though..
Before that, the airforce used Mora-knives in their survival kits, if I'm correctly informed.
I also remember reading a book on knives sometime mid -90's, and in it seeing a "tactical" knife from SOG knives, that looked really similar to the S1. (My guestimate is that the SOG would have to predate the S1 by several years to make it into that book.)
Is it a plausible explanation that all of the knives above share a common denominator in that the "look" of them was in line with what was in vogue at the time, rather than being copies of eachother?
As Ruud said, there are several fundamental characteristics that place them further apart than the actual look suggests.

 

[Gonzo]

Completely understand that to an expert eye, they probably appear like chalk and cheese.

As I said in my original post, '...the materials are different... Perhaps they 'borrowed' the designs and made better knives?'

I suppose my point is, if I may take the A1 as an example, given that it was released in 1999, and the Cold Steel Survival Rescue Knife was in their 1993 catalogue, I wonder if there was any inspiration from the Cold Steel design. (Likewise with the F1/Master Hunter and the Thor/Trail Master.)

I wonder if the good people at Fallkniven thought, 'We can make this better', and six years later produced something similar but of higher quality in the A1.

Of course, may all be a coincidence.

I do find it unlikely though that Fallkniven wouldn't have been aware of the SRK on the market for six years while developing the A1.

I appreciate all the feedback.

 

[Jared]

Early F1s made from ATS34 steel were made in Germany

 

[Gonzo]

Yes, good point Pysen.

As you say, might have been what was in vogue at the time, with only the SRK and A1 surviving through to today. (Which is handy for a survival knife )
Could have been a lot of other knives produced in the 1990s like them, all drawing from a general design fashion.

Would be interested in hearing about any other knife that fits in with this fashion.

 

[demographic]

I helped a mates girlfriend at the time buy a Master Hunter, not sure how long ago it was but I'm guessing it must have been 91 or 92? Since then he married her, she had their daughter, they got divorced and the daughter has grown up to be pretty good looking.

I agree that there are similarities with the F1, same as with any rubber handled drop point sheath knife and I doubt that Fallkniven wouldn't have had a good look around at the competition before producing their version.

I still prefer the F1 though.

 

[robevs73]

I bought a master hunter in '91 and there was no sign of a fallkniven back then.

 

[OldJimbo]

To my knowledge, too, the Master Hunter was around long before the F1. It was probably a copy of an existing design, though. As With Fallkniven, Cold Steel made/make no knives. The work was contracted out to Ontario and other established manufacturers on bid.. Now I believe everything is made in China of J series steel. That's a pity because some of the thinner knives made out of CarbonV were both cheap and good. The MH and F1 are very different knives, the MH being thinner, and a flat grind with a poor factory secondary bevel. Once you hone the flats into something actually flat, though, and put on a decent acute convex, the MH is a very good hunting knife for butchering moose and bear. The CarbonV steel holds a rough edge for meat cutting and skinning very well. The same applies to the Cold Steel Red River, Hudson Bay models and since I prefer those, I gave my MH to my son.

 

[Gonzo]

Great info there, thanks OldJimbo