Bad Grammar

[demographic]

I'm not blown away by text speek but other than that as long as its pretty east to work out and understand I'm not that bothered.
I'm by no means perfect and some of the people who get all jumped about perfect grammer are the ones with very little in the way of interesting comments in what they say anyway.
I would far rather read interesting comments by people with slight defects in their grammer than perfect grammer and very little content.

Anyway, heres something I spotted recently that shows to some extent how much I am bothered as long as its OK to read.

 

[Toddy]

I'm not a grammar nazi, and neither is Xylaria who started this thread.
However, asking for clarity, and a little common courtesy is not unreasonable.

Capital letters to begin a sentence, don't use only capitals in a sentence, don't 'text' a post, use full stops and commas, and if you know your spelling is carp use the spellchecker.

Hardly rocket science, is it ?

cheers,
Toddy

 

[xylaria]

Demographic, you are right. Personally I loathe grammar nazi's and I think it is really rude to get uppity about weather the right simile or spelling is used . Like quite a few that were educated between 1975 and 1995 english grammar wasn't taught at all, and therefore I get pretty offended by some pendants corrections especially if is done just to belittle.

It was this thread that got my goat. I think because it was more than one poster that wasn't using full stops or capitals, it means I have been noticing that type of post more often. I can't help having dyslexia, I don't think I am asking too much of others to use capshift and full stops.

 

[Wayland]

Well I work and communicate with all sorts in my work.

I certainly meet a lot of people who genuinely struggle with grammar, spelling, punctuation and in some cases even the language itself.

For those people I have great sympathy because I struggled at school with many of the same problems.

I was born almost deaf, came late to language as a result, and was treated like an idiot by teachers for years. I worked hard and got through it, but it was never easy and I'll be the first to admit that I'm a long way from being one of it's finest exponents.

However, I meet a lot of people who are just too bone idle to make an effort and quite a few that mangle our language deliberately in some pathetic effort to be radical.

It saddens me because we have been gifted with such a rich and descriptive language and like so many other precious things it's being lost because it's not considered politically correct to even mention it.

Language is a powerful tool that had enabled humanity to achieve great things and I for one believe it's worth using well.

 

[sapper1]

Just read the thread ,not to put any one down but if you read it out loud it sounds like an excited child.
All the information is there but the fast delivery is a bit bewildering.
I have 2 sons who are autistic and I fully understand the difficulties caused by poor punctuation,I also realise that some people have problems with literacy ,spelling and punctuation and don't even realise it.

 

[Barney]

This thread is getting a bit much in my view, fair enough that people have a problem and struggle to understand some peoples writing, but it's getting a bit beyond that.

Whats happened to live and let live? Variety is the spice of life! I hope this thread does not put anyone off contributing to a discussion, no matter what their spelling or punctuation is like.

 

[harryhaller]

The fall (bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthur-
nuk!) of a once wallstrait oldparr is retaled early in bed and later
on life down through all christian minstrelsy. The great fall of the
offwall entailed at such short notice the pftjschute of Finnegan,
erse solid man, that the humptyhillhead of humself prumptly sends
an unquiring one well to the west in quest of his tumptytumtoes:
and their upturnpikepointandplace is at the knock out in the park
where oranges have been laid to rust upon the green since dev-
linsfirst loved livvy.

An extract from "Finnegans Wake" by James Joyce.

Unified spelling has only existed recently - people in Shakespeare's time could spell words the way they wanted.

Let us not forget also that our language is very difficult to spell because it is not phonetic. This due to the fact that no "authority" in this country has bothered to reform our spelling, as they have in other countries - though Webster started to reform the spelling of american-english. So it is no shame when somebody has spelling difficulties - all that matters is that people understand what one is trying to say.

 

[NatG]

it's not really punctuation and grammare that bother me, i find that lots of these rules slip on the internet anyway. What does annoy me is things which are so poorly written and thought out that they are barely cogent. It implies that you don't care about what you#'re saying, and therefore don't care about the people who have to read it.

 

[British Red]

In my view we need to be careful here. This site has been quick enough to remove people who transgressed a rule through the way they naturally speak - just like most plain speaking working men in my view but "those are the rules".

Sure some people have difficuty comprehending certain posts. Just ignore them if you don't understand them is my view. Or politely ask for clarification at the time and in the relavent thread if they are addressed personally to you. It is just as likely that the person who wrote the thread has as many difficulties writing as others do with reading.

This isn't an English class its a forum. Text speak is a modern dialect - probably more widey spoken than Welsh or Gaelic. I personally dislike it - but no more so than "mock dialect" from Mockney to Oirish to "pseudo crofter". Its use is no more irritating to this reader though than deliberately obsucre local dialect.

 

[BorderReiver]

In my view we need to be careful here. This site has been quick enough to remove people who transgressed a rule through the way they naturally speak - just like most plain speaking working men in my view but "those are the rules".

Sure some people have difficuty comprehending certain posts. Just ignore them if you don't understand them is my view. Or politely ask for clarification at the time and in the relavent thread if they are addressed personally to you. It is just as likely that the person who wrote the thread has as many difficulties writing as others do with reading.

This isn't an English class its a forum. Text speak is a modern dialect - probably more widey spoken than Welsh or Gaelic. I personally dislike it - but no more so than "mock dialect" from Mockney to Oirish to "pseudo crofter". Its use is no more irritating to this reader though than deliberately obsucre local dialect.

Text speak arose from the restrictions imposed by typing on a 'phone. It should, IMO, be restricted to it's specific medium and those familiar with it's use.

The same applies to professional jargon; perfectly acceptable in situ but a pain in the bum in wider communication.

Local dialects are also fine "locally" but I agree with you that they can be a nuisance if used in the wider sphere.

Fora are used to share ideas and obscuring the meanings of your communications by sloppy use of the keyboard wastes both your time and that of the people with whom you are attempting to reach.

 

[xylaria]

I don't think anyone has problem with anyone writing the way they speak, it works very well in forums adding to the relaxed chat. There is an etiquette about using caps lock, IT LOOKS LIKE SHOUTING SO IT IS CONSIDERED RUDE, where as solely using the same case looks like mumbling. Well some members are a bit deaf in the fact they have inborn disabilities which make certain types of punctuation errors really difficult to understand.

I have to use a spellchecker, read through my own posts so it makes some sense even then it can littered with errors. The last thing I want is anyone with simerlar problems to feel put upon. I won't dismiss what someone says because what they have written is hard to read, because a lot of the time I can come back to one of my own posts and don't understand what I have written. What I meant to say was of course something really profoundly intelligent but what I did say was so screwed up no-one could make sense of it.

I like this song, I learned more about the mechanics of the english language listening to this than I did in 12 years of state school.

 

[Toddy]

I don't think we've ever removed someone for poor spelling .........constant swearing? hmmm, two very young men come to mind, but that's it.

Text speak ? This is simply the wrong place for it.

Occasional bits and pieces in a conversation, like local dialect, are no problem; but an entire post in it, other than as an appropriate joke, is just not going to be well received.
Besides, it's so unneccesary now as more and more people become familiar with the predictive text of their mobiles.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Barney]

This is a good one


FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE-
SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF-
IC STUDY COMBINED WITH
THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS.

Now count the F's in that sentence.
Count them ONLY ONCE!
Then see below...

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.

.
.
.
.

.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

ANSWER:

There are six F's in the sentence.

A person of average intelligence finds three of them.

If you spotted four, you're above average.
If you got five, you can turn your nose at most anybody.
If you caught six, you are a genius.

 

[British Red]

Text speak arose from the restrictions imposed by typing on a 'phone. It should, IMO, be restricted to it's specific medium and those familiar with it's use.

And you are entitled to your opinion BR. However language evolves. Many sub 25 year olds undersatnd "m8" far more so than "dreich" or "claggy" or indeed "bimble" as a series of characters intended to convey meaning.

Many dialects have passed away - the old "Mill talk" beloved of Dick Emery and still found amongst the older members of the Yorkshire and Lancashire villages when first I passed that way is a classic example. Its need has passed.

Sure language and dialect can be artificially revived as some form of homage to Don Quixote but ultimately it is still "tilting at windmills". Cute pseudo dialect beloved of some is no more meaningful than a vintage car. Interesting but ultimately costly, time consuming and pointless in the modern world.

Personally I still use the Devon burr and call all women under 40 "Wench" - but the PC brigade have stamped it out in all who give a tiny rats bottom for their opinion

Red

 

[Toddy]

Okay, so I'm goood

cheers,
M

 

[sam_acw]

I do believe that clearly written, thoughtfully planned and correctly spelled English is easier for all to read and understand.

Of all the things I see here that irritate me, the worst is writing thread titles without apostrophes or with extra ones.

Aside from that; I wish people would write the best they can, not only for the benefit of others but also for their own.

 

[tommy the cat]

I agree and disagree! Text speak I dont 'get it'very often but to be honest I dont get some of the abbreviations on here and have posted this before. I know some are obvious SWMBO but again isn't this as lazy cul8r?!?
I am very poor grammatically /spelling and have the utmost empathy for any one who 'suffers' with dyslexia but just dont read the post. Its their loss for being lazy.This is unless of course they struggle with writing as they may have something good to say.....
Dave

 

[harryhaller]

Typos, of course, aren't spelling mistakes. They are impossible to avoid and we have to tolerate them.

Secondly, the "english" language isn't really english - except as the official language of a political admnistrative area.

This is going to get heavy

Especially in the 19thC, dialects and languages were "discouraged" and frowned upon because it was believed that areas having their own dialects or language could not be governed so effectively, There were exceptions, but that was the general rule through most of Europe and elsewhere. In other words, the intolerance of local variations in language etc. was a form of repression. I really think we should get away from thinking in terms of what is correct - there is no authority who can define that since language is something living and expressive - not something that should be controlled by authorities - think of Orwell, 1984, and "Newspeak".

Thirdly, to back this all up, we have no problem accepting american spelling and vocabulary.

You see - the most important thing is simply to communicate - that sometimes requires extra effort from the person doing the talking or writing and also sometimes extra effort from those listening or reading - this is called understanding - and we need more communication between people and peoples and much more understanding - something that improves with practice.

Care for the way you speak, be creative and it can become something beautiful - poetry. But don't stop speaking dialect or being creative in your writing - just don't be sloppy about it.

BTW - in the 19thC, Occitan was considered by the french "authorities" to be a sort of "pidgin" french, the resut of ignorance and laziness. It is now, of course, recognised as a language, It was the language which Richard Cœur de Lion (Richard the Lionheart) spoke and it was the language of the Troubadours - the language of the poets.

Language is something beautiful and precious - we don't want to lose it like the Cornish did theirs. Be proud of your dialects

Oh, and if americans can spell differently then so can others. Important is only that we all understand each other.

Grammar is not a rule book of how people should speak, it is an analysis of the way people do speak. If a certain percentage of the people speak or write in a certain way and the dictionaries and grammar books say that is wrong - it is they who are wrong,

If lots of us wrote "wrong" as "rong", then "rong" is a correct spelling of the word.

 

[harryhaller]

"Our Language". by Simeon Potter is an excellent book and I recommend it highly.

 

[BorderReiver]

And you are entitled to your opinion BR. However language evolves. Many sub 25 year olds undersatnd "m8" far more so than "dreich" or "claggy" or indeed "bimble" as a series of characters intended to convey meaning.

Many dialects have passed away - the old "Mill talk" beloved of Dick Emery and still found amongst the older members of the Yorkshire and Lancashire villages when first I passed that way is a classic example. Its need has passed.

Sure language and dialect can be artificially revived as some form of homage to Don Quixote but ultimately it is still "tilting at windmills". Cute pseudo dialect beloved of some is no more meaningful than a vintage car. Interesting but ultimately costly, time consuming and pointless in the modern world.

Personally I still use the Devon burr and call all women under 40 "Wench" - but the PC brigade have stamped it out in all who give a tiny rats bottom for their opinion

Red

You're mixing up notation with lexicography.

M8 is a representation of "mate", whilst "dreich" is "dreich".

Dreich was used on radio 4 as part of the National weather forecast recently.

Ah, the bit about the cars and the dialects being pointless in the modern world; true but very, very sad. It is one reason why I spend so much time in the woods, itself a pointless activity in the modern world, it helps me to feel at one with the things that really matter.

Old dialects are about people and communities; the vintage cars to me are about skills, craftsmanship and pride in a job well done.

"Wench" is fine by me, if used in a non sexist, non pejorative fashion.