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Cultural imperialism??

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mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
This is a sensitive question so please bear with me.
As some of you will know, I make wooden furniture and treen item's whiuch are based (design wise) on Irish and Welsh pattern's. Recently I saw some info about plaid Cymru and its "charisamatic" founder (Saunders Lewis) and was quite shocked at the virulent (racist) anti english sentiment. To be honets this only brought into focus a question which has lurked (uncomfortably) at the back of my mind for a long time-basically is it right or acceptable for an anglo saxon like me to copy and reproduce forms and pattern's from other national cultures, wehter they be Welsh Irish, Chinease, African Swedish or whatever? Should traditional Welsh patterns be made only by Welsh people? Or is it more appropriate to restrict creative output to a repertoire of forms which are indigenous to my own culture? If there are any Welsh member's prepapred to comment I would love to hear what is your view? I take creaetive issues very seriously, but I definately dont want to get into the realms of nationlist/supremacist rant's etc, just hopefully a constructive debate on the issues. I sometimes think that the global village/eclectic mentality actually destroy's native cultures and replaces it with anemic bland pastichey one size fits all?
What thoughts does any one have?
cheers Jonathan :)
 
Of course it's OK. I'm not welsh, but I am scottish and I'd be quite happy to buy a kilt from a different country, if it was good enough. Do anything you want.
 
Of cause its ok for you to do what your doing and its silly for you to think otherwise.Cultural imperialism pah! Load of old nonsence!
 
I think I see where you are going with this......it's like someone appropriating someone else's cultural iconography, or in today's terms, copying design elements from a particular faith and turning them into modern art and making money doing so.

No, I don't think you have to be concerned; the forms and shapes you are describing are stylistic, it could be said that your work it therefore derivative, but so much of what we do nowadays is, and you have openly admitted your influences and are not passing them off as being made by, for talking's sake, "A Welsh Woodworker working in Wales".

It's your work, using materials you have chosen, in a medium you are skilled in working, with influences that have affected the design elements of your pieces.

Indeed it could be argued that without contact with other cultures and some assimilation of them, then the resulting isolation of style becomes rigidly inflexible and stiffles creativity and development.

As for Saunders Lewis, he was a man of his times and a man of strong convictions. The Irish, Scots and Welsh all had nationalistic outpourings at that time.
I don't think it's necessary for you to be concerned about nationalistic issues.

Besides, there was a great cross over in the design features of the past, have you seen Northumbrian flowering knotwork ? Beautiful stuff but where do the divisons lie in British Insular Celtic Art ? That style and it's likenesses is found from Orkney in the North to Cornwall in the South, carved on stone, in wood, in manuscript and in embroidery. You're just following a long standing British tradition :D

cheers,
Toddy
 
Ok - have to agree with above, imo art is in the hart if you love to express a form then as long as you respect that culture/form then thats ok.

I lived in Wales for 3 years (North) had a great time had very nationalist friends who were happy to except me as I lived, worked and spent my money locally and after one heated debate I agreed that all English should not be allowed to live in Wales as long as all the Welsh would have to be repatronizes? Will ad
 
Generally, it is a combination of Cultural Exchange and Survival of the Fittest.

And it's been going on from many centuries - since man first started walking this Earth. Items and styles get seen by others, and then copied. And any item/style/shape that is or works better quickly gets adopted.

But then you have some people who feel they must protect THEIR heritage from all others - but also have no reservations about borrowing from any other group. Unfortunately, when you investigate further, you find that it often has more to do with them protecting what they see as their potential marketplace than their heritage.

Here in the States, the HOT BUTTON area is Indian culture. Yet if it wasn't for the non-Indian researchers/collectors/craftsmen, then most of their culture would have been lost. But still, most discussions quickly devolve down into cultural racism - where only members of that group can do/say/make things associated with that group. Anything else by any other people is seen as and characterized as Stealing Their Heritage from them.

Yes, tricky issue. Especially after you see all the ... borrowing ... across cultural lines that has taken place in all the centuries past.

The simple response I have come up with when questioned about "stealing someone else's Culture" is to ask them from whom did their ancestors take it from in the past? Most spit back some nasty/snide comment that their ancestors came up with it first, but quickly shut up as they think about it a bit more.

So my view is that it is a personal choice. Yes, it is nice if a person does make items from their own heritage, but to demand that only people from their cultural heritage can do so is cultural racism - and with a flawed foundation ta boot.

Just my humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
 
mr dazzler said:
This is a sensitive question so please bear with me.
As some of you will know, I make wooden furniture and treen item's whiuch are based (design wise) on Irish and Welsh pattern's. Recently I saw some info about plaid Cymru and its "charisamatic" founder (Saunders Lewis) and was quite shocked at the virulent (racist) anti english sentiment. To be honets this only brought into focus a question which has lurked (uncomfortably) at the back of my mind for a long time-basically is it right or acceptable for an anglo saxon like me to copy and reproduce forms and pattern's from other national cultures, wehter they be Welsh Irish, Chinease, African Swedish or whatever? Should traditional Welsh patterns be made only by Welsh people? Or is it more appropriate to restrict creative output to a repertoire of forms which are indigenous to my own culture? If there are any Welsh member's prepapred to comment I would love to hear what is your view? I take creaetive issues very seriously, but I definately dont want to get into the realms of nationlist/supremacist rant's etc, just hopefully a constructive debate on the issues. I sometimes think that the global village/eclectic mentality actually destroy's native cultures and replaces it with anemic bland pastichey one size fits all?
What thoughts does any one have?
cheers Jonathan :)
Click to expand...

I think this is a very interesting and thought provoking post. My work is inspired by various traditions, particularly Scandinavian, medieval English, Welsh, German. I am not afraid to dabble with a bit of Japanese or Native American traditional woodwork if it takes my fancy. I always declare my influences and feel that it is honoring those great traditions. The association of Pole Lathe Turners had a line in their aims and objectives about promoting the use of the pole lathe wherever possible. Now as a researcher as well as craftsman I find it fascinating how some cultures around the globe turned their bowls whilst others beautifully carved them with adze and knife. I think it would be a shame if we lost these differences. I turned down the offer to take part in a project in rural Hoduras helping folk make a living through green woodwork because it felt to me that the woodwork in question was primarily late 19th century European and North American in its inspiration. I am sure the indigenous folk would have had crafts that could have been researched and revived despite the folk running the scheme telling me that there was no indigenous woodworking culture.

Anyway I think my take on it is know the roots and inspirations of your work, share it with your customers as it adds to the meaning. I think there would be great value in a Welsh ladle made in Wales by a young man who learned from his grandfather in a family that always made ladles, sadly I don't know of one. I think there is value in what you do and if I was Welsh I would like to think that I would be proud of other folk sharing in the joy of my culture. Did you ever hear an Irishman complaining about the Americans celebrating St Pats? My experience is that they actively promote it and flog Guinness by the tanker load though the Irish are very confident in their cultural identity, perhaps the Welsh feel their culture is more threatened and less valued?

Also I think that we should admit the truth that we have virtually no English tradition of spoonmaking and that is why we have to go to Wales or Sweden for inspiration. This again is a cultural difference which I find interesting. In medieval times most of Europe were eating from wooden bowls using wooden spoons. In Lubeck for instance many hundreds of medieval bowls and spoons were found. From English archaeological sites we find the bowls but not the spoons. Hundreds of bowls from medieval London less than a dozen spoons. 250 bowls from the Mary Rose...2 spoons. My take on this is that we were either using horn spoons (horn degrades even quicker than wood) or slurping liquid food from the bowl.

There is nothing wrong with this. When the domestic pottery boom started with Bernard Leach in the 1930s they had no good English bowls to copy because the British ate from wooden bowls so they copied Japanese, Korean and Chinese forms. 80 years later the Leach tradition is very much a part of our culture and I am glad to say it is different from all of its sources fo inspiration.
 
Dont really think that this is a sensitive topic.For the record i am welsh born and bred and I am as patriotic about my nation and heritage as they come. I really cant see any welshman or woman being offended by you copying patterns or styles that reflect our culture. I think you enter a far more sinister area when only welsh/ irish/ scots or whoever are allowed to produce wares that reflect their heritage, as i belive Mohandas Gandhi said " imitation is the sincerest flattery".I for one would be interested to see the things you produce. Any way we are used to the english plundering our lands and trying to erase our culture, we still have edward the firsts castles to remind us of that :lol: .
 
Ok, Here goes.

I am Welsh, my parents were Welsh, my grandparents were Welsh etc etc. So I think that qualifies me to give my own humble opinion to this matter.

Would I get upset or offendede if an Englishman(Sais, as we say it, but without the Pen Dafad bit ) was to make something that was of a Welsh design or Welsh inspired?

In a word?

NO!

I think that if you limit things in this way, then they die. But if people care enough to make something or be insipred by something or someones culture, then it can only be a good thing, the culture grows and hopefully spreads.

Just think about the amount of kusa or kuksas you see on this site, and the scandi inspired knives you see. It can only brings a new audience to that particular culture, in my mind and Welsh way of thinking, this is a good thing.

Go ahead, enjoy what you make, and explain to anyone who asks, what it is, where you got the idea, and what inspired you

Oh, and some pictures of the finished articles would be nice!
 
Imitation of other cultures/tribes has been going on ever since people started thinking along these lines... or even before. I don't worry about the opinions of bigots.
 
We all appear to be agreed on this one.:D

You may find the odd vociferous crank spouting off about the sacrilege of a non National using the Nations Culture.

Crank being the operative word.;)

There are still a few strange people who rant on about my nations kilt being worn by non Scots but AFAIK they are dying out.

Put the worry out of your mind Jonathon, and get on with enjoying the use of your skills.
 
Bullocks to the lot of them!!

What next? Told off for eating a pizza if you not Italian? ( I just have :D, though it did wash it down with my nations other national drink Irn Bru).

If we were all to think like that where would we draw the line?

I drive a japanese car, wear Italian walking boots and a swedish smock, watch films made in America, eat fruit grown god knows where, own a dog bred originally in Labrador, Canada (I think :D) and each year most Christians (and lets be honest even people who don't know who Jesus Christ was) put up a tree in a tradition that originated in germany and even that harks back to earlier customs.

Basically it's a form of hypocrisy, that borrowing some ideas from other cultures is ok, but not the otherway around, but sadly the people guilty of it are usually too ignorant to realise this.

I like to think of life as a big Buffet, where we pick and choose what we like from all over the world. We can't help it its part or our nature to copy ideas we like.

The bizarre thing about the kilt is that it isn't an original Scottish idea, upto the 1745 rebellion most Scots (ok most Highland scots) wore the Great kilt or Plaid, it was only after the wearing of tartan was made legal again that some bright spark (In fact I believe he was English) came up with the idea of what is known as the kilt in modern times.

Andy
 
Lot of fuss about nothing, if you ask me. If we stopped borrowing from any other culture, the average house would be half empty. I really don't care who makes my eccles cakes, turkish delight, or spag bol. :)

Will.
 
Thank you for all your thought provoking responses:)
I guess as a white anglo saxon male, I've been coached to believe that it was my kind as brought all suffering and injustice into the world, and perhaps I amm just too sensitive about this and, as some of you have sudgested, don't need to be.
I actually dislkie the traditional english and american windsor chair forms (too fussy and pretentious), the welsh and Irish ones are far more interesting (and despite what John Brown says) I think there origin is from scandinavia. I am working on several new neo vernacular chair designs, they have an african sculptural feel, but they also have irish simplicity of form, welsh boldness, greek klismos grace, japanese minimal etc etc all elements that are subconsciously in the mix without me setting out to make a "global chair" as such. But maybe its just that what goes in comes out later on. I spent many hours studying furniture and other wood/treen objects from all over the world simply because I am interested in what I now call "real sculpture". I started to carve welsh spoons because I think they are hard to beat, fantastic forms, I just simply like their bold simplicity. I am working with a local museum to reproduce some copies of traditional fenland drain spade's and also grain shovell's, traditional local patterns. If I see any spoons or ladles I might copy them, but being a visually trained artist/sculptor, I expect to see quality of form/proportion etc, if I see that in one particular cultural tradition then I am happy to learn from it.
keep your comments and thoughts coming please, its great to hear what people think on this subject
cheers Jonathan :)
 
As an aside I would bet that if anyone of just about any UK country were to do a study into where they are really from genetically they would find that they have genetic ancestors from all over Europe and further back than that Africa.

You don't think that artwork and sculpture is any different do you?
The Welsh, Irish, English will have taken inspiration from anything they liked, otherwise they might well still be doing cave paintings by blowing paint over their hands.

There might be the odd one that will complain about you taking inspiration from "their" heratage:rolleyes: but its also quite posible that those are the ones with a chip on their shoulder and will take umbrage at anything you do anyway.
 
Yes, it all can get pretty rediculous. But it can also go farther than most people think.

Here in the States, the Indian issue is one of those areas. There are Federal and State laws about non-Indians making what are traditional Indian items, or portraying an Indian at a bunch of Federal and State parks. Only an individual with the right Blood Quantum level may make Indian items for certain museums and parks, or dress up and demonstrate an Indian for the public and visitors. Blood Quantum level? The Federal officially documented and recorded percentage of Indian heritage you have - as in 1/2 or 1/4 Indian ancestry.

Yeah, a MAJOR "hot button" issue here in the States.

The really funny part is just how much of that ... Indian cultural items/crafts ... wouldn't exist if they had not "borrowed" stuff from the Europeans in the way of trade goods (beads, silver, brass, exotic feathers, iron, etc.).

But you are never supposed to mention that, and if you even Think about it you are branded a racist oppressor who personally STOLE everything from these poor victims.

More scars from past encounters and unpopular political stances...

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
 
Mike Ameling said:
Yes, it all can get pretty rediculous. But it can also go farther than most people think.

Here in the States, the Indian issue is one of those areas. There are Federal and State laws about non-Indians making what are traditional Indian items, or portraying an Indian at a bunch of Federal and State parks. Only an individual with the right Blood Quantum level may make Indian items for certain museums and parks, or dress up and demonstrate an Indian for the public and visitors. Blood Quantum level? The Federal officially documented and recorded percentage of Indian heritage you have - as in 1/2 or 1/4 Indian ancestry.

Yeah, a MAJOR "hot button" issue here in the States.

The really funny part is just how much of that ... Indian cultural items/crafts ... wouldn't exist if they had not "borrowed" stuff from the Europeans in the way of trade goods (beads, silver, brass, exotic feathers, iron, etc.).

But you are never supposed to mention that, and if you even Think about it you are branded a racist oppressor who personally STOLE everything from these poor victims.

More scars from past encounters and unpopular political stances...

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
Click to expand...

Interesting what you say there Mike about the Indian issues, i witnesed something similar in scotland a couple of years ago which i could not belive.
I was at the Culloden battlefield near one of the grave sites the name of which escapes me, when a piper started playing a lament (the scots on this site please correct me if this is the wrong term) within miutes some officials appeared and escorted the piper from the site quoting some regulation or outher regarding the playing of bagpipes.
This i would not of belived if i had not seen with my own eyes, a piper not allowed to play at such a special site in his own country.
 
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