"I live without cash and I manage just fine "
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xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
This guy has been discused before. Most people agree that sponging isnt much a of survival effort.
However the concept of living on little expenditure is interesting. The man of the house has a book "make the most of your deer", it is interesting because once you take an animals life the book shows you not to waste a single resource you have. We do waste a lot, and we are beginning to face a time when we need to learn not to waste anything that is at our disposal. Our granparents cooked in dripping they saved, and we drizzle imported olive oil, and bin the fat on our bacon go figure. They could do a chicken on sunday and still be eating the stock on thursday.
There is certainly a way of living where you can WOOF for a roof and foraging/skip delve for food. It is OK for the young and the healthy. There is something liberating about realising money isnt that important in the pursuit of happiness.
However the concept of living on little expenditure is interesting. The man of the house has a book "make the most of your deer", it is interesting because once you take an animals life the book shows you not to waste a single resource you have. We do waste a lot, and we are beginning to face a time when we need to learn not to waste anything that is at our disposal. Our granparents cooked in dripping they saved, and we drizzle imported olive oil, and bin the fat on our bacon go figure. They could do a chicken on sunday and still be eating the stock on thursday.
There is certainly a way of living where you can WOOF for a roof and foraging/skip delve for food. It is OK for the young and the healthy. There is something liberating about realising money isnt that important in the pursuit of happiness.
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I didn't realise that the article was out of date, It was a link that someone posted to me and I though it of interest.
Same answer. So long as they don't expect to have access to the health service, police, roads etc. fine.
If they expect to use things that hard working people pay for without contibuting - they are parasites on society
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parasite
Red
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My brother is an example of the scavenger/skip diver par excellence but he works for his living and pays his taxes. He just makes use of the appalling and profligate waste of others. He doesn't drive a car, and is in a lot of ways more true to the spirit of "bushcraft" than I am, at least he can skin a rabbit anyway.
No problem with that - once you pay tax - how you choose your life should be your own business and no-one elses! Good on him
I lived without cash or money of any sort for just over a year, mainly by WOOFing, working for board and lodging through things like Helpex and Diggers and Dreamers, and by Bushcrafting. All I could carry was all that I had. It was lovely and it took me all over the country.
Putting aside the odd bit of poaching, tresspass and wildcamping I don't think I did any harm, although I did technically break the law.
Of course there were times when it was hard, but isn't that the way in the 'normal' world anyhow? I would still be doing it now but I met a girl, fell in love and am now married with a child, and back working and paying tax. Luckily during my time I wasn't ill nor did I break any bones, and had no reason to go to a doctor, but I'm not sure if my conscience could live with free health care whilst paying no tax.
But what I don't understand is what the people on this thread have against Freegans.
I know some very prominent (at least in the media) freegans and they are by no means 'spongers'. They all earn money, they all pay tax, they all contribute society. The whole point of freegans and freeganism (a horrible word, I grant you) is to draw attention the the wastefulness of western society. What could anyone possibly object to in the practice of raising awareness in western civilisations general wastefulness. Just read 'Waste: uncovering the global food scandal' by Tristram Stuart for a brief introduction
I do object to people (like the guy in the article) writing articles about it and being more than slightly snug and holier-than-thou about it, and then selling a piece about it to a rag. If you're going to do it, just do it. Plenty of other people are to and they don't make a song and dance about it.
Putting aside the odd bit of poaching, tresspass and wildcamping I don't think I did any harm, although I did technically break the law.
Of course there were times when it was hard, but isn't that the way in the 'normal' world anyhow? I would still be doing it now but I met a girl, fell in love and am now married with a child, and back working and paying tax. Luckily during my time I wasn't ill nor did I break any bones, and had no reason to go to a doctor, but I'm not sure if my conscience could live with free health care whilst paying no tax.
But what I don't understand is what the people on this thread have against Freegans.
I know some very prominent (at least in the media) freegans and they are by no means 'spongers'. They all earn money, they all pay tax, they all contribute society. The whole point of freegans and freeganism (a horrible word, I grant you) is to draw attention the the wastefulness of western society. What could anyone possibly object to in the practice of raising awareness in western civilisations general wastefulness. Just read 'Waste: uncovering the global food scandal' by Tristram Stuart for a brief introduction
I do object to people (like the guy in the article) writing articles about it and being more than slightly snug and holier-than-thou about it, and then selling a piece about it to a rag. If you're going to do it, just do it. Plenty of other people are to and they don't make a song and dance about it.
Meh, he's not taking the p!ss, it's not thievery where he sets out with the sole aim of taking what isn't his. He lives a quiet life away from the hustle and bustle and I'm sure most here can appreciate the beauty of that.
We should be happy for the guy.
Regarding the taxes - there are far more reliable criteria that will say whether someone's a good citizen. Like helping your neighbours.. pitching in where you see an extra hand is needed. These things are all taken into account in any decent society - sadly not ours.
Lets work on the bigger issues and leave the little guy alone.
What this implies is that the hard working tax payer really doesn't like his work. I suspect this guy doesn't expect to have access to roads, health service and police but merely uses them because they're there, and perhaps feels grateful and priviliged when he is served by someone who's enthusiastic and happy in their job. He doesn't have to contribute to it to use it. And neither do you or I. Hell, lets do things we want to do and not complain about those who choose to do something else - providing they're not setting things on fire, etc
Got to say on the whole I agree with Red, but every time I hear taxes mentioned an old quote of Robert Heinlein comes to mind...
"Taxes are not levied for the benefit of the taxed"
"Taxes are not levied for the benefit of the taxed"
Possibly so.
My take is a simple one. If we believe in things like universal healthcare then it has to be paid for. I expect to pay in more than my "fair share" for those incapable of working - the chronically sick, the severely disabled etc. I even expect to pay in for those unable to find work but trying to.
As for those who are fit and well, and perfectly capable of working but both choose not to, but avail themselves of services that those of us who work hard pay for, well, as I said they are, by a dictionary definition, parasites.
Is our system perfect, heck no. But seeking to profit from services paid for by others and thereby diminishing the funds available to take care of those in genuine need is morally repugnant to me. Many people are denied life improving or life saving treatments due to lack of available funds. To further diminsh those funds because "money is not important"...is disgusting
Anyway...we risk straying into politics...so I will refrain from further contribution
Red
My take is a simple one. If we believe in things like universal healthcare then it has to be paid for. I expect to pay in more than my "fair share" for those incapable of working - the chronically sick, the severely disabled etc. I even expect to pay in for those unable to find work but trying to.
As for those who are fit and well, and perfectly capable of working but both choose not to, but avail themselves of services that those of us who work hard pay for, well, as I said they are, by a dictionary definition, parasites.
Is our system perfect, heck no. But seeking to profit from services paid for by others and thereby diminishing the funds available to take care of those in genuine need is morally repugnant to me. Many people are denied life improving or life saving treatments due to lack of available funds. To further diminsh those funds because "money is not important"...is disgusting
Anyway...we risk straying into politics...so I will refrain from further contribution
Red
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Woofing you work for your bed and food, tipically your are contributing to making food [normally organic] cheaper for society. It isn't sponging by anyway. The combined the tax contribution of everyone that is presently woofing doing minium wage job instead I reckon wouldn't cover the vodafone tax dodge, the RBS bailout, or the bradford and bingly sure-up, so i wont pass judgement.
However because of the 850billion quid bit of trouble we are now in, I would prefer to respectfully learn off anyone that can genunuely live without money, because I feel we may rapidly end up in situtaion where the wheelbarrow means more than the cash you can carry in it.
However because of the 850billion quid bit of trouble we are now in, I would prefer to respectfully learn off anyone that can genunuely live without money, because I feel we may rapidly end up in situtaion where the wheelbarrow means more than the cash you can carry in it.
I don't like the argument red is making because it reduces things down to a point where money becomes the defining moral factor. Almost to the point where money becomes a more important foundation of morality rather than any notion of goodness. I don't mean to have a dig at red but I see all too often these days that the morality of business, i.e. money and profit, is spilling over into social and political spheres where it has no place as a value judgement imo.
If we believe in universal healthcare as a good in itself then it is irrelevant whether a person has paid tax or not.
I don't know this guy, maybe he is a selfish freeloader but on the other hand maybe if we asked he would be entirely happy to help any of us out for free.
If we believe in universal healthcare as a good in itself then it is irrelevant whether a person has paid tax or not.
I don't know this guy, maybe he is a selfish freeloader but on the other hand maybe if we asked he would be entirely happy to help any of us out for free.
I don't think BR was talking about profit tbh, just simple economics.
I think that all too often it is forgotten that our free healthcare still needs to be funded.
Government pays for it, but it does so through our taxes.
If no one pays taxes then there is no money to pay for free healthcare.
We don't talk about that openly enough. We don't teach our children that simple little bit of social engineering, clearly enough. Every one who can pay a little funds the NHS that we all can use.
I thank every single one of you who has paid, does pay and will continue to pay, National Insurance Long term members know exactly why it's so close to my heart, and I'm not having a dig at the fellow in the OP, but our society no longer functions on the barter network beyond simple interactions between family and friends and the, 'someone, someone I know, knows'.
A cash based society like ours (after all nurses have to pay their bills too) still only succeeds because of input from those able to do so, to fund social care.
It's a strange twist; the "I'm all right Jack!", isn't a rampant capitalist but a conviction socialist in this case.
Nowt so queer as folk.
M
I think that all too often it is forgotten that our free healthcare still needs to be funded.
Government pays for it, but it does so through our taxes.
If no one pays taxes then there is no money to pay for free healthcare.
We don't talk about that openly enough. We don't teach our children that simple little bit of social engineering, clearly enough. Every one who can pay a little funds the NHS that we all can use.
I thank every single one of you who has paid, does pay and will continue to pay, National Insurance
Long term members know exactly why it's so close to my heart, and I'm not having a dig at the fellow in the OP, but our society no longer functions on the barter network beyond simple interactions between family and friends and the, 'someone, someone I know, knows'. A cash based society like ours (after all nurses have to pay their bills too) still only succeeds because of input from those able to do so, to fund social care.
It's a strange twist; the "I'm all right Jack!", isn't a rampant capitalist but a conviction socialist
in this case.Nowt so queer as folk.
M
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There's no such thing as a free lunch - a truism in pretty much all economic scenarios. Too much talk about "rights" and not enough about responsibilities. Whether its free medcal support, park rangers, police, roads, infrastructure, military - it all has to be paid for by us at the end of the day. Even the dread bankers with their million-pound bonuses pay 50+% of that back in higher-rate tax, and their spend on other stuff from whats left after taxes provides jobs for those making the goods or providing the services.
Sure, you can play the system if you're "clever" enough. But by doing so, there is less left in the pot for those who really need the services but are genuinely unable to provide for themselves. Even worse, the measures taken to stop rampant abuse of the welfare system inevitably catch some who really need it, so a double whammy on the genuinely needy.
Sure, you can play the system if you're "clever" enough. But by doing so, there is less left in the pot for those who really need the services but are genuinely unable to provide for themselves. Even worse, the measures taken to stop rampant abuse of the welfare system inevitably catch some who really need it, so a double whammy on the genuinely needy.
See the point about universal healthcare and the fact that it has to be funded. But with regards to the future there's a real predicament, because much of the funding for our public services would not be there if we weren't such voracious consumers. That's how we're supporting the huge budgets of the health service, the military, etc - by buying things, and buying things that in most cases aren't necessary, and worse - destructive to the planet.
That's how you get your brain tumor taken out for free, because Mr. Jones bought a new car. Isn't there something really wrong an unnatural about that?
..So it's not a good way to have it and not a sustainable way. We'll have to evolve a bit and make some changes - the economy must be tied in with the health of the planet and the size of it's resources, and ultimately that's going to result in a much reduced budget.
That's the best possible outcome. All the others end in tears.
That's how you get your brain tumor taken out for free, because Mr. Jones bought a new car. Isn't there something really wrong an unnatural about that?
..So it's not a good way to have it and not a sustainable way. We'll have to evolve a bit and make some changes - the economy must be tied in with the health of the planet and the size of it's resources, and ultimately that's going to result in a much reduced budget.
That's the best possible outcome. All the others end in tears.
I've got to admit I used to houseshare and work with this guy and his heart is in the right place. When this was written he was working p/t but talking food instead of cash, the caravan came from freecycle and the laptop was years old.
He has recently spent time in Greece helping set up a self reliant community and afaik is working on setting up something similar here.
As for the walk to India, there is more to the story. An (irresponsible in my opinion) mother foisted her daughter on him and at the same time someone else attached themselves. If he had remained by himself I think he would have found some way to manage and progress but because he was too kind/weak to say no to these people he was responsible for looking after them as well and it all went pear-shaped. A bit of forethought and a few french lessons would have helped as well
All in all, I don't think he is a parasite, he is very idealistic and wants to try and live a good life. He may be misguided and I certainly don't agree with everything he says but he isn't content to live complicitly in what he feels is a failing system.
He has recently spent time in Greece helping set up a self reliant community and afaik is working on setting up something similar here.
As for the walk to India, there is more to the story. An (irresponsible in my opinion) mother foisted her daughter on him and at the same time someone else attached themselves. If he had remained by himself I think he would have found some way to manage and progress but because he was too kind/weak to say no to these people he was responsible for looking after them as well and it all went pear-shaped. A bit of forethought and a few french lessons would have helped as well
All in all, I don't think he is a parasite, he is very idealistic and wants to try and live a good life. He may be misguided and I certainly don't agree with everything he says but he isn't content to live complicitly in what he feels is a failing system.
Nicely put, it's always beneficial to listen to both sides before passing judgement.
Agree MB is a friend of a friend and it's well worth reading the book he wrote (from which he took no personal profit but tax WAS paid) before forming an opinion based on the very little the media says about him. He is by all accounts a good guy and his point is in large part political and is being made about the excesses of consumerism. I would also like to point out that a substantial proportion of the "freegan" food recovered went to putting on meals for those that are less well off.