Winter Tyre options?

[Beardy]

Hi fellas,

Just wanted to ask everyone out there about winter tyres, the various options out there and keeping safe in poor road conditions. I know it's summer but am hoping I can get myself set up cheaper now than I can when the snow starts falling!

Last winter I spent some time in Norway and Iceland, winter tyres here are compulsory between certain dates. I also did a winter course up in Lochaber last winter for a week, great stuff, but on the last day on the way to the hills our minibus hit a patch of black ice and we had a crash, no I wasn't the one behind the wheel... The winter before that, my sister did something similar and put her hatchback through a hedgerow. Luckily everyone was okay and there ended up being no serious damage or dramas after both cases.

I've come to realise that in the last 2 years I have been spending more time in cold places; the region where my family is based has experienced a lot colder and more wintery conditions; and the mountains and remote areas (either those an hour away or those a day's drive away) have it more wintery still and can rely on gritter trucks even less. The last winters in the UK there were a lot of people getting stuck for hours and essentially becoming immobile, or having accidents, and having seen how other countries handle their own conditions, I want to do something to continue being safe on the road and actually able to get around during the winter.

That was the straightforward part, the difficult bit is, how?

The Nordic countries I have been to all use either a studded winter tyre, or an 'all year round' tyre that seems to be a compromise between dedicated summer and winter tyres. Are studded tyres legal in the UK, and under what conditions? Could I leave them on all winter, or would I have to take them off if the snow melted for some period? I have never seen anyone using them, and don't fancy being pulled over for damaging the road or somesuch - like I know snow chains can do. I guess in other countries things can be more straightforward - you know the snow will arrive roundabout this date, and will stay until roundabout this date, but UK weather is more variable - theres nothing to stop an initial snowfall being followed by a warmer period of rain and then back to snow or ice - which obviously complicates things if some tyres are 'snow/ice use only'.

I think proper winter tyres (studded?) on a separate set of wheels would work best, even if it's a bit pricier than just buying only all season tyres (my existing summer tyres aren't anywhere near needing replacing yet, and I'm not sure all seasons are likely to be as good as winter tyres) or only winter tyres without wheels (ease and speed of changing them, which is probably better for more unpredictable UK weather, plus I don't want to seat the tyre on the wheel incorrectly and damage one or the other, as I've heard can happen). But, if All Seasons are as good as dedicated winter tyres, then maybe it's worth waiting out and getting a set of them, it would mean not having to change over tyres or wheels, and not having to buy extra wheels.

Any thoughts on the above from those who've gone down one of said routes or got experience in winter driving, either UK or anywhere else? Are All Season tyres as good as winter ones? Likely area of use is N Wales and various other hilly outdoorsy areas of the UK (the Lakes, hopefully Scotland more). Perhaps the odd trip to Europe once in a while but that's in the future really. If I end up getting more permanently established in Iceland I find it hard to believe I would bring my little Skoda over, it's not cheap to do so, the steering wheel is on the wrong side and the roads here would just abuse it...

Cheers

Beardy

 

[robin wood]

I believe studded tyres are not allowed on UK roads as most of the time we are on tarmac.
Winter tyres are very different to summer or all season tyres, they are a different compound, I was told silicone based but don't know, what I do know is that when the temp drops below 5 degrees normal tyres become hard and inflexible which means you loose a lot of grip. Winter tyres stay soft and flexible at much colder temps. The tread pattern looks similar at a glance but each tread block is then cross cutt into lots of tiny block helping them warm faster and giving increased edges to grip.
Bottom line is I put on a set of winter tyres (not studded) in November and take them off in April. This gives my VW T4 a bit better grip going forward as a 4wd on normal road tyres but it also gives greatly improved braking either on packed snow, black ice or just damp cold greasy winter roads. I would not dream of driving in winter without them.

 

[Jaan]

Hello from the very-cold-and-snowy-at-winter Estonia!

Don't know about the UK laws so maybe someone can fill you in on that, but I do know how we cope and what works best. In Estonia it is mandatory for drivers to pass a slippery-driving exam which teaches you about traction and how different speeds influence it. Also the moose test on ice.
I live in a very small town about 15km away from the capital. Even though it can be considered a suburb there are still many-many winter mornings when the plows can't keep up with the snow and you have to go through about 20cm of fresh snow. Even worse when the weather is warm and it manages to melt.

Most of us here drive a vehicle with some sort of all-wheel-drive system to minimize the loss of traction but even with a two-wheel-drive one I've rarely got stuck (most people don't either).

What works best:
- Separate wheels and tyres for winter: Get thinner wheels and tyres, if possible, because that will help you sink through the snow and get the tyres on the road.
- Doesen't matter if studded or not: Honestly, it matters to about 30mph and usually the city streets are clean(er). If you're doing 60 on the motorway there's absolutely no difference whether you have studded tyres or not, you probably will slide off the road anyways (or into someone) if you make a bad decision.
- Good judgement: If you can avoid the situations, areas and driving style that will get you stuck then you're already better than most drivers at winter.

Used to have an Audi with FWD that had separate thinner wheels and studded tyres for winter, that worked well. Currently have a Volvo with AWD and very wide wheels, so I don't keep a separate set of wheels, just have the non-studded winter variety tyres. I have never managed to get stuck.

Anyway, good luck mate and hope you find what you're looking for. I would definitely get the non-studded tyres if over half the time you're going to be on tarmac. Otherwise you just waste the tyres. If you drive mostly on roads that are fully covered in ice or snow then it's a different story, but most of the times you're still OK with the non-studded ones.

 

[Lasse]

I'd definitely go for proper winter tyres. They're also needed in many German regions during the winter months.
They can make a very big difference: 2 winters ago we were in Norway with 2 cars, one with proper winter tyres, the other with normal tyres... Going uphill on a snowy road the car with winter tyres had no problems what so ever, the one without simply disappeared from the rear view mirror. Needless to say we then installed some snow chains on the second vehicle, but only on the front wheels (front wheel drive). This was a great improvement, but the rear wheels (without chains) still slipped a bit too easy, which almost landed the car in a valley when taking a sharp turn going downhill (driving only 10kmh)... The car with winter tyres was great during the entire trip, no problems at all.

I'm considering buying some of these for my vehicle, in preparation of an other cold winter:

 

[Beardy]

Cheers, interesting. RW and Jaan, I hadn't realised that non-studded tyres would be the best choice, I thought 'if you're going for winter tyres you may as well go the whole way and get studs'. But I can see how that might be over the top for most uses - especially if we're likely to get rain as much as snow, and especially if they damage the road. A guy I worked with managed to smash 2 different cars last winter, the third one he took to using snow chains with, noting that they weren't exactly in line with the law shall we say, but were a lot better than the alternative. Plus, the local coppers didn't press the matter as he was one of the very few in that area able to still get from A to B without going off the road and causing them extra work!

I had never thought of narrow thin tyres cutting through the snow. Pretty intriguing. Where I am just now, whenever you see tooled-up 4x4s, its not unusual for them to have larger and wider tyres (see http://www.arctictrucks.com/pages/1296 to see what I mean). These, and the trucks they are on, usually look so over the top that it's unbelievable, but I'd always thought the big tyres were to get more surface area in contact with the road in bad conditions. Guess it depends on local conditions too, it's probably easier to 'sink through' softer recent snowfall to get to the road, but on ice maybe it's better to have more in contact? I'm not exactly in the market for a massive 4x4 with massive tyres on it either (currently happy with my little Fabia) so I guess narrow is the only way to go.

That's a fair bit of snow you have over in Estonia, makes me think it'd be worthwhile going through this sort of thing in the UK driving syllabus too! This sort of driving was barely mentioned let alone practiced, even though I did Pass Plus... Must be scary how many UK drivers off in other countries must get a rude awakening.

Any tips on distinguishing a non-studded winter tyre from an all season, all year round tyre, apart from what they are sold as? Is it just an issue of what compounds are used to make it have the right 'give' in the expected temperatures, or is there a bit more to it?

Googling around I also found this link ( http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=42714&start=40 and http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=42714&start=120 ) from people who seem to spend a wee bit of time driving to the Alps for the skiing... If you scroll around it suggests there is more than one type of winter tyre and different stopping distances on snow are given. There is something about a "soft Nordic snow tyre" versus a "hard Central European winter tyre" (as well as studded, all season and summer tyres) and it seems to suggest the Nordic tyres sacrifice a lot of stopping distance in cold wet conditions for their performance in snow - probably not good for the generally-milder UK then I'm guessing?

There's also a bit made about the 'snowflake in a mountain' symbol on tyres which seems to be an extra certification or test for all seasons? At least the message from that messageboard seems to be, if you're going to go for all seasons, at least get ones with this on.

Guys, did you buy a second set of wheels to keep your winter tyres on making it easier to swap them around with just a wrench and a jack, or, do you take the tyres off and on just the one set of wheels?

Cheers

Beardy

 

[Dave Budd]

i got myself some winter tyres last year and they make a huge difference. I drive a vectra estate (front wheel drive) and I live on Dartmoor, so I took great joyin driving past folk who had burried their poncy four wheel drives in various hedges

I bought a set of wheels on ebay (£20 each, all came with good tyres so I now have a spare set of tyres) and 4 winter tyres from tyres UK (or something like that) on t'interweb. The tyres were cheapy one by Nangkang and about £40 each. Like robin says, whether its full on snow and ice or greasy winter roads the traction you get is so much better than normal road tyres.

I've had chains in the past and they are great on ice, but as soon as you get to a road they have to come off and are no good with greasy roads or slushy stuff.

 

[Jaan]

I had never thought of narrow thin tyres cutting through the snow. Pretty intriguing. Where I am just now, whenever you see tooled-up 4x4s, its not unusual for them to have larger and wider tyres (see http://www.arctictrucks.com/pages/1296 to see what I mean). These, and the trucks they are on, usually look so over the top that it's unbelievable, but I'd always thought the big tyres were to get more surface area in contact with the road in bad conditions. Guess it depends on local conditions too, it's probably easier to 'sink through' softer recent snowfall to get to the road, but on ice maybe it's better to have more in contact? I'm not exactly in the market for a massive 4x4 with massive tyres on it either (currently happy with my little Fabia) so I guess narrow is the only way to go.

Any tips on distinguishing a non-studded winter tyre from an all season, all year round tyre, apart from what they are sold as? Is it just an issue of what compounds are used to make it have the right 'give' in the expected temperatures, or is there a bit more to it?

Guys, did you buy a second set of wheels to keep your winter tyres on making it easier to swap them around with just a wrench and a jack, or, do you take the tyres off and on just the one set of wheels?

Cheers

Beardy

I'll try to help you as much as I can:

Narrow tyres cut better through the snow and reach the hard surface beneath when there is a hard surface beneath. Usually in Estonia people get narrower and smaller tyres for the winter so I imagine it would be OK for the UK too. It's another story when you have 2m of thick snow that you need to drive on in the arctic. Then more surface area is better.

Look at the WRC tyres they use for Sweden:

As for the tyres themselves, the pattern is more angular and deep with small zig-zag grooves cut into them. It's also much more soft than summer tyres. I've had no problems with the tyres in wet and dry conditions, but they perform far better than studded tyres in those conditions. You can also drive them year-round, although that will wear them out faster. What I do is drive them winters only until the guy who changes my tyres says it's enough - then I use them as summer tyres if I need to - saves money.

Pattern:

Also keeping the winter ones on separate wheels is recommended since it's much easier to change them - even though it's still recommended to go and balance them yearly. That way you can have different sized wheels too. Currently the Volvo has 17'' wheels which are 225 wide and those winter tyres cost about 150€ each. On the other hand buying smaller wheels + tyres would turn out to be even more expensive.


In addition, that snow was nothing, it was a pretty weekend.

One morning I woke up and it was still very dark in the room. Well looked out of the window and saw nothing but blackness. Then went outside to check:

Needless to say I missed work that day and spent the afternoon digging the car (and the house) out.

 

[Elines]

Are snow socks an option?

http://www.which.co.uk/news/2010/11/snow-socks-or-winter-tyres-238011/

 

[salad]

We have to have winter tyres here or your insurance will not cover you, Most people I know don't use studs, Just regular winter tyres and they cope fine

 

[Wayland]

I'm wondering about Winter tyres but I've was using Autosocks last year with good results.

 

[bikething]

Didn't someone on here say that some insurance companies wouldn't pay out if you had an accident with winter tyres on as they (the insurance company) claimed it was a 'modification' ?

 

[mikeybear]

Didn't someone on here say that some insurance companies wouldn't pay out if you had an accident with winter tyres on as they (the insurance company) claimed it was a 'modification' ?

I remember this being mentioned
Weren't the insurance companies subsequenly strung up by their thumbs over this comment ?


Found it now .....

Whats really scary in the UK is that now some insurance companies have decided that Winter tyres are a "modification" to your vehicle and therefore if you dont pay an increased premium your insurance is invalidated , how crazy is that , the RAC and AA where on national Radio naming and shaming the companies , penalising people for making their vehicles safer to drive in winter :yikes:

I thought it was a wind up at first , how do some people sleep at night ?

Last I heard; it is a wind up, at least the company in question, had withdrawn the statement anyway.
It would be good to straighten this one out, once and for all.

 

[robin wood]

Here is me towing out the stuck 4WD chaps last winter.

This is a pretty steep downhill into the Edale Valley, with the snow tyres on I could brake and come to a dead stop with no skidding.

Last 2 winters I only had 2 on the front, this winter those part worn ones will go on back and I'll have new ones on the front. 2 on the front worked OK but if you braked hard whilst cornering the back could let go whilst the front gripped, OK if you know what you are doing but better off with 4. I picked up a set of cheap steel wheels for the T4 for £10 each with useable tyres.

 

[Beardy]

Those are some pretty thin tyres - they look pretty fragile what with him being airborne and all!

Not sure how practical snowsocks would be. I don't think they would last too long if you used them for every trip, being fabric? And, if you keep them as a 'get you home' item for when you are stuck, then how are you going to fit them to your car when out and stuck? I guess you could jack it up to get them around the tyre but I'm not sure setting a jack on top of a slippy slushy uneven potentially icey surface then putting weight on top of it is the way to go. Or do you 'drive into them' like with chains? But again, you may well be already without traction at this point. So, do you fit them pre journey or not, and, how do they last?

Apologies for what's probably a daft question but, how do you balance a set of tyres? I was planning on changing wheels and tyres myself rather than taking them to somebody, but I'm not sure about balancing? I guess it's making sure it has equal tread and grip on both sides so there isn't a pull to one side? Would like to do the whole thing myself to be honest if it's at all possible, but don't want to make things less safe by mistake! Good to know you can continue to use worn winter tyres in the summer for some time though.

Could you also elaborate a bit on the non-studded ones being better than the studded ones? Do you mean better as in better performance? Or is it a wear/cost thing? Guess I had just always assumed that studded tyres would offer the most grip (even if they might be over the top for use on tarmac) so it's intriguing to hear that this isn't necessarily the case?

There's a big price difference too between Dave's case and Volvo's offerings... Guess I need to do my research on just what is out there, whether it's better to go for something from Skoda or a third party parts brand, and just how much it's worth putting towards a decent set. Still, getting wheels too and doing it myself should save a bit of money over time compared to getting a garage to change them, and I'm sure it will save a ton of cursing with a tyre iron!

Cheers guys, looks like there's a wealth of experience on here about winter driving, thanks... please keep it coming!

Beardy

 

[robin wood]

I go to my local tyre place and buy the winter tyres they recommend. I have used them for several years and whenever I do a check they are within a few quid of internet prices and they fit them. It really is not worth playing with tyre irons yourself. Most places would charge £10 to fit and balance a tyre if you took it in. It does make it worth buying a cheap set of rims otherwise you pay £40 spring and autumn to change a set over. Balancing is the thing they do where they spin the wheel and newly fitted tyre on a machine then add small lead weights untill it is perfectly balanced. It makes little difference below 60mph but if you have a poorly balanced wheel/tyre on the front at 70-80 it causes significant vibration through the steering wheel.

 

[santaman2000]

...Apologies for what's probably a daft question but, how do you balance a set of tyres? I was planning on changing wheels and tyres myself rather than taking them to somebody, but I'm not sure about balancing? I guess it's making sure it has equal tread and grip on both sides so there isn't a pull to one side? Would like to do the whole thing myself to be honest if it's at all possible, but don't want to make things less safe by mistake!...

No, I'm afraid that's not all there is too it. What you're describing is important but it's more properly called "trueing."

Balancing is the process of determining which side of the wheel/tire (after mounting) is heaviest and adding a counterbalancing weight to the other side (side meaning around the circumference, not inside vs outside) It is usually best (most precisely) done with a spin balance devise that is a bit large and expensive for a home workshop. However I would recommend that you watch whoever you get to do the balance (if they will permit you in the shop area) to better understand the process. There might even be something on youtube.

To get an idea of the importance of balancing try this experiment: Take a heavy coin and tape it securely to one blade of an electric fan. The turn on the fan and see how violently the unbalanced condition makes it spin.

 

[Beardy]

Hmmm, so I could get 4 extra rims, get winter tyres fitted and balanced once, then keep that set-up and just swap the whole things off and on as needed? I'm imagining that they shouldn't need rebalancing every season when you pop them off and on, as long as the combination of wheel and tyre are the same and there's no symptoms of vibration, although I might be barking up the wrong tree and Jaan's post mentions rebalancing yearly..? Apologies on account of all the daft questions, I've not mucked around with tyres much, apart from changing the odd flat! Mentioning flats and spares, I hope I only have to buy 4 winter tyres and not 5!

Good point before too about having only 2 on, then going to 4. Guess that could spread the cost over 2 seasons, just as long as I watch for the back end on corners the first winter.

Another thing mentioned earlier was different size tyres front and rear. At the moment I'm running with same size all over. But are some of you running with slightly bigger/wider tyres at the rear than at the front in winter for more traction? Something to be considered for a 2WD, or not enough of an effect to be worth bothering about?

Cheers

Beardy

 

[santaman2000]

I've rarely needed to rebalance tires/wheels unless I had one repaired; but if you have a set off the vehicle it seems cheap and easy to have the balance checked before re-installing it.

As to changing only two at a time, well I suppose it depends on whether it's legal where you're driving. IIRC it's legal to have different sizes (front vs rear) in the UK, but not necessarily so throughout Europe.

 

[Jaan]

Good answers here, buying 2 winter tyres at first seems a solid idea for the UK.
Regarding balancing: yes you could do that once and leave them like that, but just to make sure I check them yearly, costs a fiver.

Beardy, as for what I said about non-studded tyres being better: I meant on dry and wet tarmac, studded ones are not optimal for mixed conditions and you ruin the road as well as lose a few of the studs every year from each tyre, meaning shorter tyre lifespan.

Well if you drive like a madman (like me) then there's no difference of course, the non-studded ones will wear as fast.

Reason why I have so expensive tyres is that the car has over 200 horsepower and the acceleration on snow and ice is not that compromised due to all-wheel-drive, so I would like to be able to stop too once I find I pressed the right pedal a bit too much. It (sometimes unfortunately) gets up to speed almost as fast as in the summer. Good behind stoplights if I'm in a hurry, bad because I get overconfident. Goodyear wins tests in Finland and Estonia almost yearly (both non-studded and studded), so that's what I have.

 

[garethw]

Hi there
We had several feet of snow here last winter and my tyres were surprisingly good in the white stuff... Both at home or previous years in the alps, I've never needed snopw chains with these on the 4x4.
In fact it was excellent fun running both on or off road.. as it was the same thing.
cheers
Gareth