Unissued British Enfield No.4 MK2 .303 1955

[abominable_scouse_monster]

I think it's the European Bow Hunting Cert that allows it. I am myself getting qualified in bow hunting (officialy)

 

[santaman2000]

.....What I will say is I am starting to see a change in whats being shot, the whole reson we ended up with a oversize .22 as a battle round was the AR15 Stoner pitched it as a less leatheal munition with eh AR15 and it somehow caught on in the USA so NATO adopted it, but now they are seeing the .223 is interesting but not useful in real combat situations and the number of rifles ordered for special forces private contractors is predominantly in the 7.62 range including AR clones. And if roumour is to be believed NATO will be choosing a new larger bore round as standard.

Actually you're partially right. But not entirely. The US stubbornly opposed assault type weapons and clung to full size battle rifles and calibers, particularly the 308 Winchester (7.62x51 NATO) and convinced the newly formed NATO to adopt it over NATO nations' expressed desire for an assault weapon and caliber! This continued for about a decade and a half until Russia showed us all up with the AK47 and it's shortened 7.62x39 assault round.

When we finally adopted the 223 (5.56) over a decade and a half later it was because the gun was only a bit over half the weight of the old M14 and a soldier could carry 3 times as much ammo. The early ones were actually MORE lethal due to problems that some mistakenly thought were intentional! Due to a mismatch of bullet weight and rifling rate of twist, the early rounds would tumble when striking the target and leave a gaping, Keyhole shaped wound.

The rest is history. The AR/M16 type weapons and their variants are the second most common weapons in warfare (behind the AK47) The Soviet round is as deadly or deadlier in the first 200 yards or so but runs out of steam quickly. The 223 is better at longer ranges up to 800 yards. Beyond that, a heavier round is needed for stability but TBH that long of a range isn't "battle" in the sense of modern infantry; it's for snipers with specialist weapons.

Contract security forces always have and always will choose a weapon that fires whatever the predominant real militaries use in their Area of Responsibility due to supply reasons; they get their ammo from two sources:
1. provided by their employing nation or
2. captured from enemy forces.
They figure their contract bid based on these factors.

 

[Countryman]

The SA80 now H&K have worked their magic is an excellent weapon. Don't kid yourself Abominable there's 100 years of technology in between. The ability for a soldier to lay down more fire, carry more ammunition, hit more first time and half range with optics is a big plus.

.223 is the same as 5.56N and is a great Fox control round. It's not legal to use on most Deer in the UK. Its not considered humane. However a wounded soldier ties up 2 more. A dead soldier needs no friend.

In Afghan our troops have suffered the indignity of being out ranged by 1950's AK47 and older Lee Enfields. So squads were rapidly interspersed with more 7.62 Semi Automatic weapons with equal "reach out and touch" powers. Stopping power isn't really the consideration.

In our recent club service rifle comp in windy conditions to 300m the first 5 places went to 5.56N shooters, one of which was a novice.

 

[torc]

Back to Enfields, how's about this 7.62 beauty going for a cool AU$12000.

http://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=17978
Bucket loads of allyness.

Happy trails...torc.

 

[Countryman]

Sporterized Enfields don't do it for me I'm afraid.

 

[Goatboy]

Actually you're partially right. But not entirely. The US stubbornly opposed assault type weapons and clung to full size battle rifles and calibers, particularly the 308 Winchester (7.62x51 NATO) and convinced the newly formed NATO to adopt it over NATO nations' expressed desire for an assault weapon and caliber! This continued for about a decade and a half until Russia showed us all up with the AK47 and it's shortened 7.62x39 assault round.

When we finally adopted the 223 (5.56) over a decade and a half later it was because the gun was only a bit over half the weight of the old M14 and a soldier could carry 3 times as much ammo. The early ones were actually MORE lethal due to problems that some mistakenly thought were intentional! Due to a mismatch of bullet weight and rifling rate of twist, the early rounds would tumble when striking the target and leave a gaping, Keyhole shaped wound.

The rest is history. The AR/M16 type weapons and their variants are the second most common weapons in warfare (behind the AK47) The Soviet round is as deadly or deadlier in the first 200 yards or so but runs out of steam quickly. The 223 is better at longer ranges up to 800 yards. Beyond that, a heavier round is needed for stability but TBH that long of a range isn't "battle" in the sense of modern infantry; it's for snipers with specialist weapons.

Contract security forces always have and always will choose a weapon that fires whatever the predominant real militaries use in their Area of Responsibility due to supply reasons; they get their ammo from two sources:
1. provided by their employing nation or
2. captured from enemy forces.
They figure their contract bid based on these factors.

Yup thank to Americas reluctance to get rid of large calibres and although it was adopted we got rid of this beauty due to NATO requirements. The EM-2.

[video=youtube;_wdhN5_RpX4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wdhN5_RpX4[/video]

So as far back as 1951 we could've had a sexy bullpup. Old footage shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtjVf724G7w

 

[FGYT]

Usually a nice selection of Enfields and other classics for sale in UK

http://www.thedevizesgunsmith.co.uk/sales/full-bore-rifles/

 

[FGYT]

Back to Enfields, how's about this 7.62 beauty going for a cool AU$12000.
View attachment 20435
http://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=17978
Bucket loads of allyness.
View attachment 20436
Happy trails...torc.

Sporterized Enfields don't do it for me I'm afraid.

if it is that one its not a sporterized version it was the 7.62 rebarreled Sniper rifle as issued

 

[British Red]

An L42A1 isn't it Duncan?

A rare beast!

 

[FGYT]

An L42A1 isn't it Duncan?

A rare beast!

yep the sniper version of the L39

the link i put up has just sold a boxed L42 (10" @ 1000m claimed) and has L39s available

I know some don't like sporterized but i really would love one of these 45-70 conversions

or maybe a Crock dundee 2 Thumbhole

I have a knackered Donor No4 converted to 7.62 single shot target rifle but its not worth working on as no guarantee it would shoot well regardless of the cash spent

 

[sandbender]

Here is a short video showing the 'automatic' version.

[video=youtube;b8d9k6pHqYw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8d9k6pHqYw[/video]

 

[Countryman]

We sometimes shoot them like that. It's called Mad Minute.

You just can't tell with the Sniper Versions if they are original. If they are they are worth a packet, if not you bought a very big lemon.

My Fultons regulated version will perform as well as any of the Sniper versions and retains that heritage feel.

 

[santaman2000]

yep the sniper version of the L39

the link i put up has just sold a boxed L42 (10" @ 1000m claimed) and has L39s available

I know some don't like sporterized but i really would love one of these 45-70 conversions

or maybe a Crock dundee 2 Thumbhole

I have a knackered Donor No4 converted to 7.62 single shot target rifle but its not worth working on as no guarantee it would shoot well regardless of the cash spent

Like most in this thread, I like original military rifles as well. Particularly the older bolt actions (be it the Enfield, the Mauser 98, or the 03 Springfield) But I understand perfectly why so many were sporterized. Returning GIs bought surplus guns by the thousands that they had become enamored with during their service and sporterized them to reduce weight, and more perfectly reflect their needs at home.

Some were done fairly expediently; merely cutting away excess wood from the stocks and MAYBE changing the sights. Others were done as a labor of love and produced some rifles that were not only highly functional but aesthetically beautiful as well. That top one pictured is a fine example!

 

[Gray]

if it is that one its not a sporterized version it was the 7.62 rebarreled Sniper rifle as issued

I'm probably wrong but i think this may have been referred to as a Scout rifle which was a lee enfield .303 converted to 7.62 and the forward end of the furniture removed.

 

[British Red]

Scout rifles (in the sense of that designed by Colonel Jeff Cooper) are something different - although a very acceptable one can be made from a Lee Enfield no 5 (Jungle Carbine).

I do have a supressed Steyr Scout - but it doesn't meet Jeff Coopers specifications in terms of calibre, nor does it have an IER scope. I fancy doing a proper one in .308 some time, but Ruger have made one that is pretty much sorted

 

[Gray]

Scout rifles (in the sense of that designed by Colonel Jeff Cooper) are something different - although a very acceptable one can be made from a Lee Enfield no 5 (Jungle Carbine).

I do have a supressed Steyr Scout - but it doesn't meet Jeff Coopers specifications in terms of calibre, nor does it have an IER scope. I fancy doing a proper one in .308 some time, but Ruger have made one that is pretty much sorted

ahh, that answers a question for me, cheers

 

[British Red]

Here are the details on Scout Rifles for those that are interested

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle

This is my Scout - not a pedigree example but it works for me


Steyr Scout 2 by British Red, on Flickr

 

[SCOMAN]

What size round does it fire?

 

[British Red]

Mine is .223, it really should be a larger calibre to be a true Scout rifle, it should also have less glass

 

[Gray]

I think the term scout may have been referring to the scope or the sights that was on the one i was shown, it was defo an enfield .303 converted to 7.62 and described as a sniper rifle but it was a long time ago in the 80s and the memory isnt what it used to be.

Thanks for the info BR, fantastic knowledge base you have of which i am deeply envious. A lot of memories being dug up here for me, good and bad.