Unissued British Enfield No.4 MK2 .303 1955

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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
While on a trip to the US a few years ago I attended a gun show in Reno, NV.
A dealer had an unissued mint ex-Irish Army No.4 Mk2 with the distinctive pale beech stock and some cosmoline still on it for sale.
The owner said that the laws governing gun shows of this sort meant that he was selling the rifle as a private individual to another private individual so I could have it for $300 tax free, no name, no pack drill. I was sorely tempted.
Happy trails...torc.

If he was actually a licensed dealer he was wrong. It's still a retail sale. IF on the other hand he was just a private individual (no dealer's license) he was right; private individuals do not need to process any paperwork whatsoever. Being at a gun show or in his home or in a back alley has no bearing on these rules at all. However in either case, it's illegal to sell a firearm to a non-citizen unless said non-citizen is a registered, resident alien.

I'm not doubting what you say, I believe you completely. I'm saying he was wrong in saying that. It's not uncommon for small dealers not to know all the regs. There's no test involved in getting a dealer's license; just fill in the application, pay the fee, and wait for a criminal background check (you used to have to submit a set of fingerprints with the application and fee) If you have no disqualifying felonies it will be approved.

I immensely love the fact that AAFES (the Army-Air Force Exchange Service) has begun selling guns and ammo on base about 10 years ago or so. Not only are they about 10% or so cheaper on average (for like models) they are also sales tax exempt on base. Unfortunately, they don't have Enfields.
 
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torc

Settler
Nov 23, 2005
603
0
55
left coast, ireland
Hi Santaman,
You're correct in what you say but judging by the amount and variety of stock he carried he was clearly running his stall as a business.
He made a point of stating to me that he was a private individual and at no time did he question my nationality.
Either way if I did purchase the rifle as a visitor there's nothing I could have done with it, more's the pity.
Thanks anyway for the interesting info.
Happy trails...torc.
 
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BillyBlade

Settler
Jul 27, 2011
748
3
Lanarkshire
Seller says he will not ship internationally.

I have now resorted to begging via email.

Lee Enfield. Helped win the last two wars. It'll help win the next one as well.

Still the best bolt action battle rattle rifle ever made. If only I could legally own an M-14 as well ( the best gas operated battle rattle rifle ever made IMHO) I'd be a very happy laddy.
 

IanM

Nomad
Oct 11, 2004
380
0
UK
Unfortunately there is a bundle of red tape to hurdle to import a firearm so many people refuse to do so.

I use an RFD who is experienced in import and export licences and leave it all to him. He can advise foreign sellers what they need to do and what forms are needed in their country, worth every penny of his fee.

The easiest and perhaps the cheapest is to take a holiday in the US and bring it back as a personal import. Customs enter it on your FAC slot when you pay the duty at Heathrow. Simple and straight forward.
 

swotty

Full Member
Apr 25, 2009
1,878
246
Somerset
I had one of these smooth bored to fire 410 cartridges. A lovely classic rifle and I would love it!
Can't tell you how much I regret selling mine :(
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Unfortunately there is a bundle of red tape to hurdle to import a firearm so many people refuse to do so.

I use an RFD who is experienced in import and export licences and leave it all to him. He can advise foreign sellers what they need to do and what forms are needed in their country, worth every penny of his fee.

The easiest and perhaps the cheapest is to take a holiday in the US and bring it back as a personal import. Customs enter it on your FAC slot when you pay the duty at Heathrow. Simple and straight forward.

Unfortunately US laws won't allow a non-citizen to buy it unless they're a resident alien. I believe the reasoning has to do with the required background check. The seller has to submit the buyer's name to the NICS (National Criminal Information System's) database to confirm no criminal history prohibits their buying it. Said system only shows US criminal records and therefore wouldn't be able to confirm that a visiting alien doesn't have a criminal record in their homeland.
 
Nov 29, 2004
7,808
23
Scotland
Unfortunately US laws won't allow a non-citizen to buy it unless they're a resident alien. I believe the reasoning has to do with the required background check. The seller has to submit the buyer's name to the NICS (National Criminal Information System's) database to confirm no criminal history prohibits their buying it. Said system only shows US criminal records and therefore wouldn't be able to confirm that a visiting alien doesn't have a criminal record in their homeland.

Does that include private sales?

If someone found someone trustworthy in the US to make the initial purchase would he then be able to buy it from that individual (once all the red tape was cleared)?
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Does that include private sales?

If someone found someone trustworthy in the US to make the initial purchase would he then be able to buy it from that individual (once all the red tape was cleared)?

Depends on the state. The law I referred to is a federal law and doesn't apply to private sales as far as I know (yet) But some states are more stringent. Not an all inclusive list but New York, Massachusetts, California, and Illinois are among the more restrictive states.
 
Nov 29, 2004
7,808
23
Scotland
Depends on the state. The law I referred to is a federal law and doesn't apply to private sales as far as I know (yet) But some states are more stringent. Not an all inclusive list but New York, Massachusetts, California, and Illinois are among the more restrictive states.

Thanks for that.
 
Jul 12, 2012
1,309
0
38
Liverpool
I am going past whats left of the old factory that this beautiful Enfield was made in, would you like pics?

Also little Chadwick and Keenan family history, Both my Grandmothers worked at that plant during the early war, one stayed there until the end of the war my other nan worked at Marconi on edge lane, from 42 to 46 but from 39 - 42 she was as Fazakerly. Other family members worked there too but I am less clear on what they did but I know one of them made the grooves for the T model.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Does that include private sales?

If someone found someone trustworthy in the US to make the initial purchase would he then be able to buy it from that individual (once all the red tape was cleared)?

I need to add a bit to my earlier response to this question. While all the info I gave regarding private sales is in and of itself accurate. there is one other hurdle.

Yes, as a private individual, I can sell one (or more) of my privately owned guns to another private individual. Obviously for me to own the gun I'd be selling, I'd have to have first bought it myself unless it was inherited or given to me as a present (both of which are also perfectly legal) However the scenario you propose (someone else buying the gun with the intention of immediately selling it to you to get around restrictions) is legally known as a "straw purchase" and is indeed prohibited by law (federal law)

On the other hand, since giving a gun as a "bona fide gift" is entirely legal, there's no problem whatsoever with your trusted individual making that purchase in order to immediately give it to you as a gift; at least as long as he/she has no knowledge that you are a prohibited felon or mentally incompetent. Hope this makes sense and is helpful.
 
Nov 29, 2004
7,808
23
Scotland
Not a problem :)

And Sandbender, can I ask whats the gunlaws like in Hungary?

Unlike the UK it is possible to own handguns in Hungary, a licence is required, being obviously insane or having a history of violence will prevent you from obtaining a licence. Ownership of rifles, shotguns, semi automatic rifles is also possible, again with a licence and as with hand guns you are expected to have a good reason for wanting to own them, being a collector, target shooting or hunting are good reasons.

There have been recent changes to the legislation regarding hunting and one is expected to pass various tests before being allowed to hunt with a rifle. I believe that this doesn't hold true to country folks who need a shotgun for pest control.

Ownership of semi-automatic weapons is prohibited.

A very small percentage of the population are gun owners and gun crime is rare.

If criminals want firearms illegal ones are available, I think most serious criminals look on guns as being bad for business. However there was a gang of nutjobs who were dressing as commandos and using automatic weapons to kill unarmed gypsy families a few years back but they were the exception rather than the norm.
 
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Countryman

Native
Jun 26, 2013
1,652
74
North Dorset
"An elegant weapon for a more civilized age. " Goatboy.

What's that a quote from?

Lee Enfields are not elegant they are brutal. They lack finesse in any form but they are a soldiers gun and blinking capable at long range.

I particularly enjoy the fact some sadistic sod built its recoil pad out of lovely soft brass. Ideal for bashing Jerry head in but making prone sustained shooting a torture.

Put a scope mount on it and earn interesting conversational scars around your eye like me!

However if you want a soldiers gun, a real mans gun, with a sense of heritage buy one!

I fricking love mine. 1954 Fultons regulated. However the cost of .303 is going up. S&B and mainly Privi available. Some South African ex military maybe but most surplus ammo is long gone.

For £350 you will pick up a good one but not this one. It would be a shame to shoot it.
 
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Jul 12, 2012
1,309
0
38
Liverpool
Unlike the UK it is possible to own handguns in Hungary, a licence is required, being obviously insane or having a history of violence will prevent you from obtaining a licence. Ownership of rifles, shotguns, semi automatic rifles is also possible, again with a licence and as with hand guns you are expected to have a good reason for wanting to own them, being a collector, target shooting or hunting are good reasons.

There have been recent changes to the legislation regarding hunting and one is expected to pass various tests before being allowed to hunt with a rifle. I believe that this doesn't hold true to country folks who need a shotgun for pest control.

Ownership of semi-automatic weapons is prohibited.

A very small percentage of the population are gun owners and gun crime is rare.

If criminals want firearms illegal ones are available, I think most serious criminals look on guns as being bad for business. However there was a gang of nutjobs who were dressing as commandos and using automatic weapons to kill unarmed gypsy families a few years back but they were the exception rather than the norm.


That is really good to know, its a sensible approach to FA licencing, can I ask whats the Status of Bow Hunting in Hungary I have not looked into it much.

"An elegant weapon for a more civilized age. " Goatboy.
I am not sure of the original but it was re-popularised by the XKCD commic about the LISP programming lang.

What's that a quote from?

Lee Enfields are not elegant they are brutal. They lack finesse in any form but they are a soldiers gun and blinking capable at long range.

I particularly enjoy the fact some sadistic sod built its recoil pad out of lovely soft brass. Ideal for bashing Jerry head in but making prone sustained shooting a torture.

The whole reason of a brass plate on the stock is a rifle should be as good as a club if not better, It was thought of during the American revolt possibly because brass oxidise less than iron or steel and a bit of metal cracks the skull better than a bit of wood. It was as true in 1700 at it is in 2013 having said that I would rather use a old SLR or a Pistol an Knife than a SA80 in CQB.

Put a scope mount on it and earn interesting conversational scars around your eye like me!

A relitive of mine as I said before used to cut them for the T model, but our optics are no ware close in design to the ones from 50 years ago.

However if you want a soldiers gun, a real mans gun, with a sense of heritage buy one!

I fricking love mine. 1954 Fultons regulated. However the cost of .303 is going up. S&B and mainly Privi available. Some South African ex military maybe but most surplus ammo is long gone.

For £350 you will pick up a good one but not this one. It would be a shame to shoot it.

The Enfield is one of the few guns I would honestly trust with my life I have in the past owned a MK4 (not a native scouse gun) and loved it, I used it for Deer control and Fox control. I have even loved the Delise carbine copy I shot that was designed for the OSS and Para troopers.

What I will say is I am starting to see a change in whats being shot, the whole reson we ended up with a oversize .22 as a battle round was the AR15 Stoner pitched it as a less leatheal munition with eh AR15 and it somehow caught on in the USA so NATO adopted it, but now they are seeing the .223 is interesting but not useful in real combat situations and the number of rifles ordered for special forces private contractors is predominantly in the 7.62 range including AR clones. And if roumour is to be believed NATO will be choosing a new larger bore round as standard.
 
Nov 29, 2004
7,808
23
Scotland
"...can I ask whats the Status of Bow Hunting in Hungary I have not looked into it much..."

Well off topic now. :)

It is permitted, I believe that the aforementioned hunting licence is required, however there are several companies that provide bow hunting holidays for foreigners so it is either an easy test or there is some kind of work around.
 
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