Glad I'm not the only Arc'Teryx fan around here. Although I have a substantial collection it's reserved for hillwalking, mountaineering and climbing. I have Paramo for bushcrafting.
Traditional fabrics
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These are all new and mystical brands for me to look into. That's the beauty of a forum, a chance to soak up new knowledge.
Arc'Teryx is my favourite brand. The quality is fantastic, it's fit (for me) is spot on. The downside is price. I've just got an Alpha LT hardshell and the RRP is £450. I'm fortunate that I get a substantial discount through work.
[QUOTE rg598]I'm not sure why anyone would want a material (natural or synthetic) that is warm, waterproof, breathable and sparkproof. Seems like it would make for a horrible layering system. [/QUOTE]
Ehm, no. That's good bushcrafting in the sodden wet UK climate, kit
M
Ehm, no. That's good bushcrafting in the sodden wet UK climate, kit
M
I guess it all comes down to what your doing with the kit, and what one need protection from, ie; the weather and or some of the other elements in the environment, animal vegetable and mineral.
If you have to pack kit and haul it physically any distance, up a mountain, cross country etc, then Ross' point above regarding the dry-ibility packability & weight advantage of synthetic materials etc, is a good one.
If on the other hand one finds one's self with a few days camping up in the woods, close to the car/transport, then weight isn't such an issue and therefore the material composite of clothing isn't too important.
If, on the other other hand, you have to be outside for a given period of time (working for the woman) then kit selection becomes important again, especially if the weather's poor.
The trick with material drying times, is not to get too wet in the first instance. Best plan is to stay close to home/and or a change of clothes, and try different combinations out, and see what works best for a given situation.
If a venture is committing, then all the aspects need to be carefully considered, if one lacks enough experience to make the call, "confidently", then perhaps one isn't ready to take on that particular venture, and a more suitable alternative should be sought, in order to gain enough experience to eventually realise the original goal.
The only rule regarding experience, is not to die trying to attain it, if possible.
"warm, waterproof, breathable and spark-proof"
If we swapped "warm" with "suitable base and mid layers" then provided the outer layer of a double ventile outer garment was wet (and therefore 70-99% waterproof, depending on the condition of the material) then I'd say double ventile could tick that box, in a slightly damp but comfortable kind of way.
I like PVC oilskins, ventile/and similar, goretex, synthetic fleece (in particular double helly hansen fiberpile, think HH Field Jacket ) wool jumpers and shirts, synthetic base layers, leather boots, leather and goretex boots, wellie (rubber) boots, I choose according to the requirements and anticipated conditions.
Smelling? I go to the coop, the library, the pub etc to pull, not the hill mountain valley or glen. Personal hygiene is relative, if I'm by myself, I can live with it. Hands feet teeth face (a clean face, is a midgie bit face ) and bits, in that order if I can.
If you have to pack kit and haul it physically any distance, up a mountain, cross country etc, then Ross' point above regarding the dry-ibility packability & weight advantage of synthetic materials etc, is a good one.
If on the other hand one finds one's self with a few days camping up in the woods, close to the car/transport, then weight isn't such an issue and therefore the material composite of clothing isn't too important.
If, on the other other hand, you have to be outside for a given period of time (working for the woman) then kit selection becomes important again, especially if the weather's poor.
The trick with material drying times, is not to get too wet in the first instance. Best plan is to stay close to home/and or a change of clothes, and try different combinations out, and see what works best for a given situation.
If a venture is committing, then all the aspects need to be carefully considered, if one lacks enough experience to make the call, "confidently", then perhaps one isn't ready to take on that particular venture, and a more suitable alternative should be sought, in order to gain enough experience to eventually realise the original goal.
The only rule regarding experience, is not to die trying to attain it, if possible.
"warm, waterproof, breathable and spark-proof"
If we swapped "warm" with "suitable base and mid layers" then provided the outer layer of a double ventile outer garment was wet (and therefore 70-99% waterproof, depending on the condition of the material) then I'd say double ventile could tick that box, in a slightly damp but comfortable kind of way.
I like PVC oilskins, ventile/and similar, goretex, synthetic fleece (in particular double helly hansen fiberpile, think HH Field Jacket
) wool jumpers and shirts, synthetic base layers, leather boots, leather and goretex boots, wellie (rubber) boots, I choose according to the requirements and anticipated conditions.Smelling? I go to the coop, the library, the pub etc to pull, not the hill mountain valley or glen. Personal hygiene is relative, if I'm by myself, I can live with it. Hands feet teeth face (a clean face, is a midgie bit face
) and bits, in that order if I can.
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Try two weeks in the Arctic followed by a bus journey, a flight, running the entire length of the airport, twice, and then another flight.
Personally I was very happy that I was wearing a combination of wool and canvas rather than synthetics. I suspect the other passengers were too...
Personally I was very happy that I was wearing a combination of wool and canvas rather than synthetics. I suspect the other passengers were too...
I guess it all comes down to what your doing with the kit, and what one need protection from, ie; the weather and or some of the other elements in the environment, animal vegetable and mineral.
If you have to pack kit and haul it physically any distance, up a mountain, cross country etc, then Ross' point above regarding the dry-ibility packability & weight advantage of synthetic materials etc, is a good one.
If on the other hand one finds one's self with a few days camping up in the woods, close to the car/transport, then weight isn't such an issue and therefore the material composite of clothing isn't too important.
If, on the other other hand, you have to be outside for a given period of time (working for the woman) then kit selection becomes important again, especially if the weather's poor.
The trick with material drying times, is not to get too wet in the first instance. Best plan is to stay close to home/and or a change of clothes, and try different combinations out, and see what works best for a given situation.
If a venture is committing, then all the aspects need to be carefully considered, if one lacks enough experience to make the call, "confidently", then perhaps one isn't ready to take on that particular venture, and a more suitable alternative should be sought, in order to gain enough experience to eventually realise the original goal.
The only rule regarding experience, is not to die trying to attain it, if possible.
"warm, waterproof, breathable and spark-proof"
If we swapped "warm" with "suitable base and mid layers" then provided the outer layer of a double ventile outer garment was wet (and therefore 70-99% waterproof, depending on the condition of the material) then I'd say double ventile could tick that box, in a slightly damp but comfortable kind of way.
I like PVC oilskins, ventile/and similar, goretex, synthetic fleece (in particular double helly hansen fiberpile, think HH Field Jacket
Smelling? I go to the coop, the library, the pub etc to pull, not the hill mountain valley or glen. Personal hygiene is relative, if I'm by myself, I can live with it. Hands feet teeth face (a clean face, is a midgie bit face
I think you are spot on with your evaluation.
As far as "warm, waterproof, breathable and spark-proof", that was my point about layering problems. Most of us separate our insulation layers from our shell layers. It doesn't make much sense to have them combined in a wilderness environment. However, I wouldn't put Ventile in the "waterproof" category. It is a soft shell. If you make any soft shell material thick enough, it will be water resistant, but it is not actually a waterproof material like GoreTex. It is breathable when dry, although like most materials I've tried, it is not so once it gets wet. There are no perfect materials. They all have some pretty serious disadvantages that one has to deal with. My priorities are portability and drying time because of what I do. I couldn't care less what people at the airport or some town in Norway think of me. I make my choices accordingly. They would not be the same for everyone.
I see lots of mention of "Natural Fibres" which almost always get clarified to be Cotton and Wool. At risk of a slight thread hijack, what is peoples view of linen as a fabric for outdoor clothing?
J
J
There's a bias in modern research though; it's funded by the companies who produce modern textiles, so they do reseach, they do publish, and they publish where the research can be read.
Wool just grows on sheep
M
Wool just grows on sheep
M
I wonder if all the stories about wool came about when wool manufacturing used to be big business. Wool seems to be big business these days as well. I wonder what studies they are funding.
I think claiming bias with respect to all studies on a subject without pointing out exactly where the data has been manipulated, is unfair. Data is data, and we are not exactly talking about things that are tricky to test.
Wool seems to be big business these days as well. I wonder what studies they are funding. I think claiming bias with respect to all studies on a subject without pointing out exactly where the data has been manipulated, is unfair. Data is data, and we are not exactly talking about things that are tricky to test.
Synthetic materials in general are cheap to make and cheap to work with.
Natural materials require more processing and handling which makes them troublesome and expensive from a manufacturers point of view.
End product performance has very little to do with marketing in the real world.
There are pluses and minuses on both sides but never confuse manufacturer sponsored research with absolute truth.
(Also, do not forget that the original question was posted in the "Sub Zero" forum so we can assume that is the environment that is being considered.)
Natural materials require more processing and handling which makes them troublesome and expensive from a manufacturers point of view.
End product performance has very little to do with marketing in the real world.
There are pluses and minuses on both sides but never confuse manufacturer sponsored research with absolute truth.
(Also, do not forget that the original question was posted in the "Sub Zero" forum so we can assume that is the environment that is being considered.)
Linen is best as 'summer' cloth as it is 'cooling' and non sticky against skin...not that we have to worry about that in UK. Depending of the weave of the fabric it can be quite hard wearing and reasonably safe against sparks from fire.
The only problem is that there is very small choice with supplies of linen these days, most being made into finer cloth than outdoor materials would demand.
Yes, knitting and other wool crafts are on increase again..but manufactured wool yarn is not all necessary the best choice for outdoor clothing.
They use mainly soft wool breeds for knitting yarns that are stripped from lanolin..most sold with 'oh so soft label'.
If one wants truly good wool to process truly wonderful, hardwearing outdoor garments/cloth it usually mean going to small produces or looking for hobby spinners and knitters help..and that is not cheap as pair of plain mittens can take days (as in working hours) to produce...that's from fleece to finished item....and when you can get hold of well made woollen item that is produced correct methods for the purpose item is 'for'...you truly have superior product. But to get to that superior product is that complex process that no manufacture is going there as it would cost too much time and money to make...people would not pay that much money!
I make woollens (as hobby) from scratch..straight from sheep's back and what I have given away, people have been amazed of how different the woollies are from what you may be able to buy from shops. Just to give small example how 'complex' making process can be..1. you have to get hold of right breed of sheep and that fleece have to be is in right condition for processing..then sometimes you only look for small section of the fleece to process as rest of the fleece don't have the exact right texture/quality for that particular purpose...so you might end up few handfuls of right kind of wool from each fleece..and used rest of the fleece something else..! The next step is cleaning the wool..cleaning it to correct 'level' of greasiness for the purpose..etc etc...I haven't got to the knitting/felting or other methods yet..
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I used to swear by synthetics when I did a lot of climbing , expeditioning and long distance walking.
Now my activities are more sedentary I swear AT synthetics.
For bumbling about in the woods, fields and hills I find that natural fabrics - wool, linen, cotton and silk - are my first choices (if cash allows) with synthetics coming in a very poor second but sometimes scoring just on the price!
Yesterday and last night I was out in temps that ranged from -5 to +5 centigrade with:
Wool hat, wool Buff, Merino thermals, wool shirt, wool socks, cotton combats, wool Capot, Ventile jacket, leather boots with synthetic soles, canvas and leather pack, canvas tarp, down sleeping bag ... IPK ground sheet, down filled synthetic Kip mat. I read a paper book by candle light supplemented by a modern head torch....
Toasty and dry, no spark holes, no pong, no worries...
I just go with what I feel happiest in and I try to go with things that are perceived as more eco friendly and biodegradable where possible as well
Now my activities are more sedentary I swear AT synthetics.
For bumbling about in the woods, fields and hills I find that natural fabrics - wool, linen, cotton and silk - are my first choices (if cash allows) with synthetics coming in a very poor second but sometimes scoring just on the price!
Yesterday and last night I was out in temps that ranged from -5 to +5 centigrade with:
Wool hat, wool Buff, Merino thermals, wool shirt, wool socks, cotton combats, wool Capot, Ventile jacket, leather boots with synthetic soles, canvas and leather pack, canvas tarp, down sleeping bag ... IPK ground sheet, down filled synthetic Kip mat. I read a paper book by candle light supplemented by a modern head torch....
Toasty and dry, no spark holes, no pong, no worries...
I just go with what I feel happiest in and I try to go with things that are perceived as more eco friendly and biodegradable where possible as well
To my mind though Bushcraft will always have a primitive / self sufficient / home made dimension. What you have described above is every bit as important as "fire by friction" to me.
Of course we can strip everything down to "efficiency" and say that a certain hi tech, ultralight, factory made, un repairable item is more "efficient" (for whatever personal definition of efficiency that applies - and efficiency IS a subjective measure). That though is not what interests me, its not self sustaining, it isn't something I can make, adapt or repair and at many levels I cannot even understand it. It may be a stellar bit of technology, but it has as much to do with the way I choose to live as an iPhone.
Weird isn't it. Some people on here are saying that natural fibres are best but I've maybe had one single weeks work inside a building this year (the rest being outside and most of it on a roof) and wearing synthetic fibres I've not ended up smelling like a swamp donkeys backside.
For the most part it is significantly cheaper (don't get to waffling on about charity shop buys cos you might have time to amble about those with you're brain in neutral but I don't) than natural fibres and washes better.
Think there's maybe some bamboo fibre socks that were about the only natural fibres I've worn for work and that's about it. To be fair those socks are very nice.
I'm putting a fair bit of the way we on this forum do things as Bushcraft fashion then.
For the most part it is significantly cheaper (don't get to waffling on about charity shop buys cos you might have time to amble about those with you're brain in neutral but I don't) than natural fibres and washes better.
Think there's maybe some bamboo fibre socks that were about the only natural fibres I've worn for work and that's about it. To be fair those socks are very nice.
I'm putting a fair bit of the way we on this forum do things as Bushcraft fashion then.
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Man made materials are very much 'easy care'..not that traditional materials are difficult as such, just different and people just simply don't know how it is done....or are just plain lazy to hand wash. It is so easy to shove stuff in machine and done with it.
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