Traditional fabrics

[cockney greg]

Hi guys I'm new to the forum and I've noticed something. Lots of folk here seem to favour wool and cotton clothing. On a carp fishing/camping forum I'm involved in everybody says an emphatic NO to using natural fibres like wool or cotton and plump for microfibre and acrylic etc. fibres instead as they are much quicker drying and very good at heat retention. What are your thoughts on this please.

 

[Wayland]

Synthetics work very well when you are not moving much and only a day away from the next laundry.

Many here work around camp fires and synthetics can present a higher fire risk in those sorts of situations.

Another factor for a few of us is that on a longer expedition, synthetics can rapidly develop a very unsavoury stink whereas wool in particular does not.

In the end it's horses for courses but I have gone mainly for natural fibres for my own kit.

 

[cockney greg]

Synthetics work very well when you are not moving much and only a day away from the next laundry.

Many here work around camp fires and synthetics can present a higher fire risk in those sorts of situations.

Another factor for a few of us is that on a longer expedition, synthetics can rapidly develop a very unsavoury stink whereas wool in particular does not.

In the end it's horses for courses but I have gone mainly for natural fibres for my own kit.

Interesting, thanks. Does that go the same for outerwear?

 

[Clouston98]

Wool also retains insulating powers when wet/damp, synthetics dont. I believe this is because wool Fibres absorb water, leaving the air spaces, helping it Retain warmth. Whereas synthetic fibres don't absorb, making water fill the airspace and losing its insulative powers. And plus one to all that Wayland said .

Hope this helps .

 

[rg598]

Generally I prefer synthetic materials. When in the woods I am usually mobile and out for at least a few days, so fast drying clothing is a must. More importantly, a lot of synthetic materials have much better compression and insulation to weight ratio than natural materials like wool and cotton. My sweater and jacket are primaloft. It makes a huge difference when living out of a backpack. On the other hand, a natural material like 850 down has great insulation to weight ratio. Keep in mind that when active, most of your insulation will be stored in your pack.

When it comes to clothing, I prioritize that it be compressible, fast drying, and with a high insulation to weight ratio. That usually points to synthetic materials.

In the end however, there are many synthetic materials and many natural materials. Their usability will vary. Wool is fine as a bade layer because it is thin which mitigates the slow drying time. On the other hand it is significantly outperformed by primaloft as an outer jacket.

Don't buy into the hype. A lot of the stuff people wear on forums is based on fashion, and is rarely used outside of the backyard. Do your homework on every individual item and see what people who really depend on their gear actually use.

Mark Twight's book Extreme Amphibian has some of the best advice on clothing systems for the active woodsmanship I have seen so far.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

[rg598]

*Extreme Alpinism

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[DR2501]

Have both and then fit them to the trip at hand? Buy secondhand and this needn't cost the earth either. Charity shops are good for this - I got a thick wool jumper for £2.50 from Salvation Army. I also recently got some Craghoppers basecamp trousers like new for £4 from Cancer Research!

 

[Harvestman]

Oh what? I was so looking forward to 'Extreme Amphibian"!

The remark about fashion is true, but for many bushcrafter types there is a hankering after 'traditional' clothing, so things like wool are worn out of choice. This is not a criticism. I love wool, and use it a lot, but I wear it simply because I am comfortable in it, and like its feel and its properties. It works for me. For any garment, of whatever material, that should be the bottom line: does it work for you?

 

[Clouston98]

Oh what? I was so looking forward to 'Extreme Amphibian"!

The remark about fashion is true, but for many bushcrafter types there is a hankering after 'traditional' clothing, so things like wool are worn out of choice. This is not a criticism. I love wool, and use it a lot, but I wear it simply because I am comfortable in it, and like its feel and its properties. It works for me. For any garment, of whatever material, that should be the bottom line: does it work for you?

That's really well put and I agree! . I do find wool and other natural fibres practical, but nearly everything g I carry is canvas, leather or wool type things, as I am really interested in 17th/18th century style woodcraft/bushcraft .

 

[Teepee]

Hi guys I'm new to the forum and I've noticed something. Lots of folk here seem to favour wool and cotton clothing. On a carp fishing/camping forum I'm involved in everybody says an emphatic NO to using natural fibres like wool or cotton and plump for microfibre and acrylic etc. fibres instead as they are much quicker drying and very good at heat retention. What are your thoughts on this please.

Synthetics are generally much lighter and less bulky to wear than naturals. I wear naturals when the conditions, type and period of usage dictate that they present a benefit. I can't think of any of my carp fishing days where wool or cotton presented an advantage over synth stuff though. For base layers in the cold and maybe hats and outerwear then yes, they have their place.

Generally, I agree with synthetics for fishing are better. Lighter, quicker drying, easier washing, easy to remove repulsive (to the fish) tastes from fishing clothes and usually much cheaper to boot.

As for all synthetics not being warm when damp, that is a falsity and also not relevant to this. I don't get wet fishing because I will use a waterproof/ brolley/ bivvy and won't sweat inside my clothes because I'm not doing particularly strenuous activity.

 

[cockney greg]

That's really well put and I agree! . I do find wool and other natural fibres practical, but nearly everything g I carry is canvas, leather or wool type things, as I am really interested in 17th/18th century style woodcraft/bushcraft .

There's some really interesting replies surfacing. Wonder what Edmund Hilary or Robert Falcon Scott would make of the latest fabric chlices.

 

[rg598]

There's some really interesting replies surfacing. Wonder what Edmund Hilary or Robert Falcon Scott would make of the latest fabric chlices.

Both of them were using clothing that was at the cutting edge at the time. For outer wear Hillary used synthetic clothing.

Here is a more scientific comparison between the insulation properties of Scott's clothing to that used in modern arctic expeditions: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2011/12/comparison-between-modern-and-early.html

The results were that for insulation per weight, the modern arctic clothing is about twice more efficient than that used by Scott.

 

[treadlightly]

Wool, cotton, linen, leather and silk over synthetics for me every time but that is my own prejudice and not necessarily recommended for others. You have to make your own mind up.

 

[rg598]

Wool also retains insulating powers when wet/damp, synthetics dont. I believe this is because wool Fibres absorb water, leaving the air spaces, helping it Retain warmth. Whereas synthetic fibres don't absorb, making water fill the airspace and losing its insulative powers. And plus one to all that Wayland said .

Hope this helps .

That is one of those myths that circulate on the internet like "you lose most of your heat from your head", that is simply not true. We have had several threads on the issue on this very forum, and no one is yet to show any piece of scientific information to support that claim. Fleece for example retains about as much of its insulation as wool when wet and the claims made for Primaloft One and Thermal Q are that they retain about 80% of their insulation when wet, which is similar as the claims made for wool. I suspect all of those claims are as true as those about wool.

Wool absorbs more moisture than synthetic materials so it feels less wet against the skin, and dries much more slowly, which makes you feel less of a chill. That however has nothing to do with how much insulation the material retains while wet.

 

[Clouston98]

That is one of those myths that circulate on the internet like "you lose most of your heat from your head", that is simply not true. We have had several threads on the issue on this very forum, and no one is yet to show any piece of scientific information to support that claim. Fleece for example retains about as much of its insulation as wool when wet and the claims made for Primaloft One and Thermal Q are that they retain about 80% of their insulation when wet, which is similar as the claims made for wool. I suspect all of those claims are as true as those about wool.

Wool absorbs more moisture than synthetic materials so it feels less wet against the skin, and dries much more slowly, which makes you feel less of a chill. That however has nothing to do with how much insulation the material retains while wet.

Fair enough. I dnt mean that it keeps you toasty like when its dry, but more that it isn't completely useless when wet. Just my two pence really .

 

[rg598]

Fair enough. I dnt mean that it keeps you toasty like when its dry, but more that it isn't completely useless when wet. Just my two pence really .

It's true. It's better than a lot of other materials.

 

[VanDeRooster]

Slow drying fabrics does not reduce chill. Fast wicking fabrics reduce chill, temperature regulation is controlled by other aspects of fabric design.

Synthetics wick the most and generally dry the quickest, but are prone to smelling. Merino dries slower, but doesn't smell. Cotton is only suitable for very warm climates.

A good study on base layer performance can be found at ...

http://www.worldacademicunion.com/journal/SSCI/SSCIvol01no01paper02.pdf

 

[VanDeRooster]

It's also worth looking at research by Charles Ross. He lectures in Performance Clothing Design. He is extremely well respected within our industry.

 

[Toddy]

I know of no synthetic fabric that is both waterproof and thornproof.
I know of no synthetic fabric that is warm, waterproof, breathable and sparkproof. Firemen's clothing perhaps ? Kevlar's miserable to work with unless as firepoi

Open fires and firelighting are for many a big part of what we do. Wool is warm, can be very showerproof, breathable and sparkproof as well as thornproof.

Cotton is a lovely fibre and fabric, when it's dry.

Goretex is a brilliant artificial fabric, for wet weather when moving around and not near open fires or barbed wire or fences.....look at 2nd hand army kit for proof of that. We've gotten good at patches because in use it needs it, and then it delaminates in UV too. Even the stabilised stuff ends up crumbling from the inside.

Polycotton is pretty good, but it does hole with sparks, it dries quickly though, which is why it's used for army fatigues.

At the end of the day, what use you give your kit, how tight your budget is or isn't and how comfortable you make your layering system is more important than all natural or all artificial. Both have their limitations and advantages. We're just incredibly lucky that we have the option of choice.

cheers,
Toddy

p.s.

Barbour's outdoor fabrics link.
http://www.outdoorandcountry.co.uk/fabricguide.aspx

 

[rg598]

Very true. All of the characteristics of fabrics tend to get exaggerated. All materials have limitations. You have to know how to deal with them.

As far as durability of fabrics, there are many, many ultra durable synthetic fabrics. Cordura is one, woven nylon (if used in the same thickness as other clothing) is extremely durable, not to mention more exotic materials like cuben fiber which is one of the strongest ever developed. GoreTex is just a membrane. How durable or thornproof it is depends entirely on the fabric to which it is bonded. It can be made extremely durable. GoreTex and eVent, when bonded to a strong material are both waterproof and thornproof. Sympathex and ToddTex are other examples of durable and waterproof materials used in alpine tents, designed to handle extreme stresses. There are literally dozens of others. Both my Arcteryx shell jacket and Mountain Hardwear pants are synthetic and extremely durable. I use them when pheasant hunting, which consists mostly of walking through thorn bushes all day long.

I'm not sure why anyone would want a material (natural or synthetic) that is warm, waterproof, breathable and sparkproof. Seems like it would make for a horrible layering system. I'm not familiar with any natural materials either that meet that criteria. Cotton is not sparkproof, not waterproof and not warm. If it is made waterproof, it is no longer breathable, equally not warm, and even less sparkproof. Wool is not waterproof, and it is notoriously non durable or thornproof.

But let's be honest, the average bushcrafter does not do anything which would even come close to pushing the limits of any clothing system. Most can go out with their pajamas and will do just fine at a regular meet. If you want to really compare clothing, look at people who truly rely on that clothing. Go over to UKClimbing and see what people use. Go see what triple crown holders use. That is where the differences between clothing systems start to make a difference.

Here is an old trip report, but one of my favorites. It has an excellent discussion about gear by a guy who has now done several trips to Denali: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=3994 Not all of the recommendations are needed for a relaxed trip in the local woods, but it is a good reference point.