Sustainable transportation

[gunnix]

Hi,

I was just thinking about which transportation would be sustainable.

It's clear that walking is included, but there are probably some more. I tried to make a list:

1) on foot
2) kajak / canoe (other small boats)
3) riding on animals like horse, donkey, camel (any others?)
4) langlauf / skiing
5) sled (possibly with dogs)

Do you think these are sustainable?
Are there any other forms of transportation which should be in the list?

I think bikes are a great way of transportation, but since you need metal industry, tires, ... and last but not least roads they don't seem to be that simple and easy to make and maintain in a sustainable community. That's probably why the bike was only invented in the 19th century. Correct me if I'm wrong, since I saw some great engineering with an almost complete bamboo bicycle ( http://www.americanbamboo.org/GeneralInfoPages/BambooBicycle.html ) and a nice bamboo cart ( http://www.carryfreedom.com/bamboo.html - which I'm building these days, out of old metal tubes).
The bike is definately great in places with roads but what if roads couldn't be maintained anymore for some reason. Do you think the bike would still be a viable form of transportation without roads?

PS: wikipedia on sustainability:
Sustainability is a systemic concept, relating to the continuity of economic, social, institutional and environmental aspects of human society. It is intended to be a means of configuring civilization and human activity so that society, its members and its economies are able to meet their needs and express their greatest potential in the present, while preserving biodiversity and natural ecosystems, and planning and acting for the ability to maintain these ideals in a very long term. Sustainability affects every level of organization, from the local neighborhood to the entire planet.

greetings,
gunnix


EDIT new list:
1) on Foot
This is probably the most sustainable and popular form of travel in the world for humans. It's perfectly suited to our bodies and is thus also definately a healthy form of traveling. It's easy to maneuver and stop, and you can go on lots of different kinds of terrain.
It's possible to walk bearfooted, but shoes/sandals/snowshoes are a nice addon which don't need too much extra work/resources.

Some links:
http://www.hollowtop.com/sandals.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walk#Walking_as_transportation

2) Kayak / Canoe (other small boats)
Great way to travel over rivers. You can even carry a bike with you to use on land.

Some links:
http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/
http://www.foldingkayaks.org/
http://www.pakboats.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canoes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayak

3) Riding on animals like horse, donkey, camel (any others?)
ludlowsurvivors said: "The problem with some of these is that they need a lot of caring for, especially in the foot/hoof department, also if riding long distances the rider has to be competent in horseman/womanship."

Redflex said: "My thoughts on horses. My horse is no longer shoed so no metal is used there, only need shoeing if doing lots of road work, so you can guess what I think of roads. You can use a bit less bridles so no metal there either.
If you double up with 2 horses you can use them to carry large loads which is not possible with bikes or on foot.
I also work my horse in the forest low impact compared to other equipment."

Toddy said: " Historically few could afford to ride."

4) (cross-country) Skiing
Only in areas with snow, and very good at it.

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telemark_ski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-country_skiing

5) Sled / Cart

A sled is best in snow (possible in sand/grass), while a cart (wheels) is best on flat land.
A sled with (un)mountable wheels would be nice.
It can be pulled by dogs, but Torjusg pointed out that it would be better to let women (or reindeer, moose or other ungulates) pull the sleds. Because dogs get very hungry and should better be kept in small numbers (1 or 2) for warning and hunting .

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sled
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carts

6) Bicycle
Probably the most difficult to make from this list.
You need roads, but earth roads should be good enough.
Use of metal can be minimized by using bamboo/wood as much as possible. Bamboo frames can actually be as light and stronger then aluminium frames.
Tires made of rubber should be made strong (quite thick) and durable to prevent puncturing on less then ideal roads.

Links:
http://www.americanbamboo.org/GeneralInfoPages/BambooBicycle.html
http://www.carryfreedom.com/bamboo.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle

 

[mark a.]

I don't really have an answer, but that bamboo bike is very cool.

 

[gregorach]

I think the bike should probably be on the "sustainable" list. Metalworking at the level needed has been around for yonks - what was missing before the development of the bike was the techniques of precision engineering, and I don't see any reason why that knowledge can't be preserved. Heck, you could make a lot of bikes just from the parts already in circulation. You don't really need good roads for bikes, but that doesn't matter anyway because Roman roads were far better than 19th C roads. Tires might be a bit of a problem, but not an insoluble one I'm sure - it's not like vulcanising rubber is significantly more difficult that (say) smelting iron.

 

[torjusg]

Dogs are not particularly sustainable. To pull a sled with one on for some time one needs quite a few dogs. It was uncommon among natives, before the introduction of firearms to have more than one or two dogs. Dogs need a lot of food, but firearms allowed people to feed more of them and take advantage of the increased mobility. But that, of course, caused a sometimes drastic reduction of wild reindeer, musk ox etc...

Before firearms, sleds were commonly pulled by hand along with the few dogs they had. Pulling sleds were normally considered a woman's job (as so much else).

Keeping reindeer, moose or other ungulates is much more sustainable to me. Dogs good for hunting and warning of enemies, so I would keep one or two for that purpose anyway.

Torjus Gaaren

 

[gunnix]

I think the bike should probably be on the "sustainable" list. Metalworking at the level needed has been around for yonks - what was missing before the development of the bike was the techniques of precision engineering, and I don't see any reason why that knowledge can't be preserved. Heck, you could make a lot of bikes just from the parts already in circulation. You don't really need good roads for bikes, but that doesn't matter anyway because Roman roads were far better than 19th C roads. Tires might be a bit of a problem, but not an insoluble one I'm sure - it's not like vulcanising rubber is significantly more difficult that (say) smelting iron.

Yet I don't think that big scale iron melting is sustainable in the long run. From what I studied and read (for example Jared Diamond's books Collapse and "Guns, Germs and Steel") it has had a devastating impact, mostly by forests disappearing to create charcoal. Big forests would have disappeared in the middle east and the mediterranean thousands of years ago to create iron tools (at least it had a big part in it). So I would not call something sustainable just because it has been used for quite some time. Being able to sustain something like iron melting for only a few thousand years doesn't seem so great in comparison to all the time we humans have been on this planet.

So it comes down to making only necessary things from iron, if there are any. I myself, with my limited skills, would put in knife, needle, ax, etc.

Ofcourse you are very right that now we do have roads and we do have lots of bicycle parts and metal lying around which we can easily continue to use for probably the rest of this life, even if we would stop big industry right now. It's one of the greatest transportation methods right now on places with good roads which are relatively flat.

Another thing is that probably horses would be chosen over bycicles ,even if both were sustainable, in areas without flat roads. Horses multiply themselves, can be good companions, can find their food themselves, ... on the other side a bicycle always listens!

just my 2 cents

 

[gregorach]

Well, scale is the real issue in all of these matters. Just about anything can be sustainable on the right scale.

 

[gunnix]

Well, scale is the real issue in all of these matters. Just about anything can be sustainable on the right scale.

Indeed, that's why maybe we should put in some extra parameters besides sustainability. Like how cool it is to travel with the kind of transportation, how fun it is to build, to care for, the beauty etc. I realize probably noone is using transportation only because it's sustainable.

An example: I'd definately not include cars for being fun to build if I'd need to be getting all that metal out of mines, working in factories, etc. Neither do I like to drive in a car because I rather move my body. And I don't find a car beautiful either.

 

[bushtuckerman]

sliding....sliding down stuff has to be pretty sustainable, until you hit the bottom then it requires more effort...and swinging through the tree tops that's pretty sustainable too.

Just about anything can be sustainable on the right scale

This is a very good point. With oil peaking we will be forced to exist on a much more local scale (Americans especially, since transcontinental distribution will no doubt become uneconomic), and i personally am looking forward to this. I can't see any reason why bikes couldn't be used sustainably in communities (they could be public property, just left about for anyone to ride ..well i like the idea), since (one hopes) self reliancy will bring out mechanical skills people never knew they had, and existing materials can be re-used until new technology enables the use of more easily produced materials...but i'm waffling, and in short i think we will find it easier to adapt our lifestyles than we think possible now. quite simply the issue will be forced upon us to do so. Perhaps horses will be used for slightly longer distance travels.

people can complain (not suggesting anyone is) about the incessant advance of technology but we may as well embrace it, and use it to adapt, we don't have to return to the dark ages in any sense.

charcoal was mentioned, i think we import a lot from overseas countries such as brasil... but there are now woodlands in britain which have started to be used for sustainable, local charcoal production, so that's nice!

 

[wingstoo]

Hi Folks

1) on foot

Clearly this is the most sustainable, the only thing you need are two feet and hopefully some good footwear.

2) kajak / canoe (other small boats)

In the UK these are generally made of fibreglass/carbon fibre but could return to timber quite easily.

3) riding on animals like horse, donkey, camel (any others?)

The problem with some of these is that they need a lot of caring for, especially in the foot/hoof department, also if riding long distances the rider has to be competent in horseman/womanship.


4) langlauf / skiing

Would be okay if the ground conditions allowed, but ski's tend to need snow.


5) sled (possibly with dogs)

Now a sled on wheels that can be changed to ski's in the snow would be good, and you do not necessarily need dogs to pull them.

I do like the idea of bicycles or even tricycles and even the Quadcycles, especially if you could fill the innertubes with some kind of rubber to keep the pressure needed and avoid the punctures, and with the availability of cycle trailers, it seems a good way to go.

LS

 

[Snufkin]

Wooden bikes would work off road with rubber tyres. Rubber being a sustainable product. However, transportation of the raw material via a sailing ship would take quite some time.
What about land yachts? Only practical in certain flat areas but could be of use.
You would be looking at more wind powered coastal transportation and use of rivers. Canals would be out without metal to use in the lockgates.

 

[torjusg]

Wooden bikes would work off road with rubber tyres. Rubber being a sustainable product. However, transportation of the raw material via a sailing ship would take quite some time.
What about land yachts? Only practical in certain flat areas but could be of use.
You would be looking at more wind powered coastal transportation and use of rivers. Canals would be out without metal to use in the lockgates.

You can make rubber from several plants, including dandelion. At least according to pfaf.org .

Torjus Gaaren

 

[redflex]

My thoughts on horses,

My horse is no longer shoed so no metal is used there, only need shoeing if doing lots of road work, so you can guess what I think of roads.

You can use a bit less bridles so no metal there either.

If you double up with 2 horses you can use them to carry large loads which is not possible with bikes or on foot.

I also work my horse in the forest low impact compared to other equipment.

 

[Toddy]

Historically transport for the majority of people in the UK was by foot. Few could afford to ride. Goods travelled human packs, by water or on trains of ponies or on oxen pulled sledges. Animals, from geese to cattle were walked along the drove roads to towns and farms.
Most of Scotland had very few roads until after the '45, and all of the major towns are on good, navigable watercourses. (Not sure about the New towns, places like Cumbernauld and East Kilbride) The canal networks are being renovated ( admittedly, mostly for leisure it has to be said) if they are integrated into the major river systems again it could prove to be a wonderful sustainable resource.

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[pierre girard]

I came to the transport site to talk bicycles - and look what I found. A thread about sustainable transport - including bicycles. It just so happens I went looking at bikes today.

I've had the thought it might be nice to have a bike - just in case fuel prices climb out of sight. Besides which, a couple of times a year, our family camps at the source of the Mississippi - where they have miles and miles of bicycle trails. While my wife and children have their own bikes, I've used my eldest son's bike for several years - until he showed up recently and reclaimed it. I haven't owned a bike since I was a kid, so today I went shopping. I found out I don't know much about bikes.

My first and only bike was also my father's first bike. When he was young, they would sometimes go to his grandmother's. Out beside the grainery was an old broken down bike. It had no rims and no tires. It had an ornament of an eagle where the forks met and was made by the Eagle Bicycle Works. He would sit on the bike and pretend he was riding and dream about having a bike that worked.

Just before his birthday, when he was seven, they went to his grandmother's. He went down by the grainery, but the bike was gone. There was an outside covered stairway up to the upper floor of the grainery. He went up the steps and at the top he found the bike. It had rims and tires and had been painted a bright red.

He knew his birthday was coming up, and as the day went by he kept going upstairs to look through the window, waiting for a car to come, hoping they would bring the bicycle. His mother asked him what he was looking for.

Finally, after dark, he could see two headlights coming. His uncle got out of the car, and there was his bicycle.

I don't recall being quite so happy when I received the same bike for my birthday, probably about the same age. It was a full size bike, with a single, very high, gear. I could only reach one pedal at a time, and the 2 1/2 inch ballon tires - very trendy in my father's day, were an embarrassment at a time when thinner tires were the in thing. Still it got me everywhere I needed to go, and I never blew out a tire, like some of my friends did, with their thin tired bikes, on the gravel roads and forest paths we traveled.

After I'd been married several years, I was working close to home, and it occurred to me I could save a few dollars riding a bike to work, rather than driving the car. I went to my father's place and asked him where my old bike was. I was not surprised that it was still around. He never throws anything away. I was surprised when he informed me that it was "his" bike, and he intended to keep it! I guess I just got to borrow it for a few years.

The bikes I saw in the bike shop today looked nothing like the old eagle. Though the tires have gone wider, then thinner again, I didn't see any with balloon tires. All the bikes seemed to have 21 speeds, and I sure couldn't figure out why one bike was $175, and another that looked very similar was $649. There was even a bike for $1100, but they will have to find another buyer for that one.

I finally got to the point where I was looking at two bikes that were very similar for $369. I forget the brands, but one was blue and the other silver. I think it will be the blue one, as it had a softer seat and the cross bar was at more of an angle. I've often thought women's bikes would be more appropriate for men, and women, who have less anatomy to injure by coming down hard on the cross bar, would be better suited to men's bikes. The blue one was not, technichally a woman's bike, but at least the cross bar was angled down a bit.

Then, just as I'd made up my mind, I became intrigued with another bike that had disc brakes. What won't they think of next?

Well, time to go to work. I guess the decision will keep for another day.

 

[Porcupine]

Pierre,

Did it occur to you how much more velocity you build up if you go down 15 inches before you hit something with your crotch then if you only fall 4 inches?

Besides,around here it was normal for women to wear skirts,it wasnt considered decent behaviour to kick up a leg then make a halfturn with the leg tilted up.....

The downside of the womens type of bikes is also the frames tend to tordate easier so its more or less a wobbly ride on rougher terrain.



Porc.

 

[gunnix]

Bikes:
For me I think it's important to have a good seat and a nice curved steer. This way I can cycle long comfortably (sitting up straight or only slightly forward). I'd pick a frame with a cross bar, because it's stronger and will last longer. As for the wheels I'd take big enough wheels like 26 or more, and mountain bike tires or any other strong thick ones - just because I think they have good grip and puncture less fast.

I wouldn't pick a bike with suspension or anything strange. Just because I don't like them and they are just some added complexity.. Just a strong aluminium frame and fork. One made of bamboo would ofcourse be fantastic, but you can't buy that here.

As for gears.. I think 21 gears are way too much (I got 21 -shimano alivio- , but only use about 2 or 3 of them). I would not pay extra for 21 gears if I'd be able to get the same bike with something like 12 gears. I don't live in mountain area though, and actually my gears have broken some weeks ago (some asshole put our bikes back tires on fire!) and I can only ride with 1 gear anymore (the heaviest) but I'm alright with that. I bet I'd even be fine with only 1 good gear, one not to heavy or to light. When only needing one gear I could maybe even get a bike without chain... It would be nice to find some experimental bike designs...
Here are some different gear systems:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-speed_bicycle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hub_gear
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derailleur_gears

As for lights.. it would be great to have a dynamo with led front and back lights which you can take of the bike to use walking around in the dark. Or something like that. Me I just hang my white pallight (pallight.com) flashing on my belt... and have a red light in my rucksack.

I like the idea of those foldable small bikes, but I think that they are worth less ofroad because of the small tires. I don't have any experience with that though, so I'd like to hear someone who has. Also I'd think those foldables aren't that strong, because of the places where they fold, plus they don't have a cross bar. Although the only bike I had which cracked did have a cross bar... The foldable seems perfect as city bike (easy to store in a small city house, when leaving outside a bike gets stolen), or to carry with you on the bus or train when commuting.

Anyway, it seems like the kind of bike ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle ) I have in mind looks a lot like those bikes they call "Touring bicycles" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touring_bicycle ) mixed with the steer of a "Utility bicycle" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_bicycle ).

Although... I saw a nice folding bike second hand for 25 euro which might be nice to try out

 

[David B]

I came to this site from "Song of the Paddle" so for transport the Canoe wins hands down. It is a pity the land owners in England and wales cant be convinced that the rivers were once major transport links.
Anyway I use the bike to get back to the car, depending on the river I will either drive to river, offload canoe hide/ secure canoe as best I can drive to end of trip. Cycle back to canoe load bike into canoe and canoe to where car is. If the end of the trip seems more secure I will leave the car at the start do the trip secure the canoe then cycle back for the car. All this makes it possible for me to do river trips on my own.

 

[gunnix]

I came to this site from "Song of the Paddle" so for transport the Canoe wins hands down. It is a pity the land owners in England and wales cant be convinced that the rivers were once major transport links.
Anyway I use the bike to get back to the car, depending on the river I will either drive to river, offload canoe hide/ secure canoe as best I can drive to end of trip. Cycle back to canoe load bike into canoe and canoe to where car is. If the end of the trip seems more secure I will leave the car at the start do the trip secure the canoe then cycle back for the car. All this makes it possible for me to do river trips on my own.

I also heard from a friend that in Slovenia the canoe is often used in combination with the bike (or was used). People would canoe to the city and then cycle around in the city. Then load the bike into the canoe and paddle back.

I was wondering though, if you use a folding bike or some smaller bike to be able to carry it in the canoe?

 

[David B]

II was wondering though, if you use a folding bike or some smaller bike to be able to carry it in the canoe?

Just a standard mountin bike. take off the wheels put them in first then the bike ontop the handle bars hang over the side a bit. I have been considering a cheap folding bike as they would be eisier to hide and transport.

 

[Snufkin]

Pierre, check Redline out. Tough and simple. And remember, with bikes you get what you pay for. You could walk into a bike shop and see two bikes, both with 24 gears and front suspension, one for $175 and one for $1200. The more expensive one will be lighter (thus far more fun to ride) more reliable and more durable also the suspension will actually work.