Sustainable transportation

[Snufkin]

Just a standard mountin bike. take off the wheels put them in first then the bike ontop the handle bars hang over the side a bit. I have been considering a cheap folding bike as they would be eisier to hide and transport.

I wonder if it would be possibe to build a set of wheels and a towhitch so you could trailerise a canoe and tow it by bike?

 

[David B]

I wonder if it would be possibe to build a set of wheels and a towhitch so you could trailerise a canoe and tow it by bike?

I have thought about that. There are many comercially available conoe trollyes that would do the job. The problem is that after a long river trip it is ussually getting dark and peddling along a road in the dark with 15 foot of canoe in tow is not an option I would like to try out.

 

[gunnix]

Pierre, check Redline out. Tough and simple. And remember, with bikes you get what you pay for. You could walk into a bike shop and see two bikes, both with 24 gears and front suspension, one for $175 and one for $1200. The more expensive one will be lighter (thus far more fun to ride) more reliable and more durable also the suspension will actually work.

But ofcourse you can just as well be ripped of and pay far too much for just a little teeny bit extra. Just be careful and inspect every detail. It'd be smart to make a list and go trough that so you actually don't forget anything.

 

[pierre girard]

I also heard from a friend that in Slovenia the canoe is often used in combination with the bike (or was used). People would canoe to the city and then cycle around in the city. Then load the bike into the canoe and paddle back.

I was wondering though, if you use a folding bike or some smaller bike to be able to carry it in the canoe?

I believe I've told the story before where six of us were paddling a 17 foot strip canoe, with a bicycle, across a lake - and one of the kids stood up to take a pee.

So, I guess the moral of the story would be, don't stand up when you have a bicycle in the canoe, or six people. Or maybe, hold your water...

Actually, I'm not sure what the moral would be for THAT story.

 

[pierre girard]

Pierre, check Redline out. Tough and simple. And remember, with bikes you get what you pay for. You could walk into a bike shop and see two bikes, both with 24 gears and front suspension, one for $175 and one for $1200. The more expensive one will be lighter (thus far more fun to ride) more reliable and more durable also the suspension will actually work.

Well, I'd like something reliable, but I'm not spending $1200 for a bike. I save that kind of INSANE :aargh4: :aargh4: spending for canoes.

 

[torjusg]

Since we are talking about canoes. My brother and I made a spruce bark canoe last summer. I combined plans from a book about birch bark canoes and from an article about spruce bark canoes. It is quite easy to find a suitable tree for a spruce bark canoe. Much easier than good birch bark.

Several bad choices (beginner's mistakes I guess) was made during construction.

First of all. It is extremely important not to rip the bark at any point along the process. Some knotholes are easy to patch, but cracks only worsen as the bark dries. Be sure to make proper cuts before attempting to free the bark from the tree (which was about 50 cm in diametre, but could have been smaller).

Next. Use an absolutely level bed for building the canoe. Otherwise the canoe will become twisted.

Do all the sewing in one day in a shady spot. Drying will make the bark more prone to cracking.

And lastly, don't cut the gores. Sewing them up later is very hard. Crimp them.

Overall, the canoe worked quite well. At least when the bark was fresh. The bark shrinks a lot when it dries, so don't have any ribs in there then (maybe loosly fitted). You may even have to make new spruce root lashings, since they become loose after the bark has shrunk.

Doing things properly with as few cracks as possible will save you a lot of irritation over leaks and lots of pitch. The canoe has now been declared unusable after I overstrained the hull when trying to refit the ribs after drying. But I hope to make another next, if not this year.

If anyone is interested in knowing about the literature I refer to, I will try to dig it up and I can post the titles here.

Torjus Gaaren

 

[Snufkin]

But ofcourse you can just as well be ripped of and pay far too much for just a little teeny bit extra. Just be careful and inspect every detail. It'd be smart to make a list and go trough that so you actually don't forget anything.

True, it's the law of diminishing returns. The difference between a £100 bike and a £400 bike are huge. The difference between a £1200 bike and a £4000 are pretty small.
It really depends if you need or are prepared to pay for that extra performance. Or you are a huge bike tart (You may have guessed, I'm a huge bike tart )

 

[Snufkin]

Well, I'd like something reliable, but I'm not spending $1200 for a bike. I save that kind of INSANE :aargh4: :aargh4: spending for canoes.

Sorry, didn't mean to give the impression that the Redline cost $1200, it's around the $470 mark.

 

[pierre girard]

Since we are talking about canoes. My brother and I made a spruce bark canoe last summer. I combined plans from a book about birch bark canoes and from an article about spruce bark canoes. It is quite easy to find a suitable tree for a spruce bark canoe. Much easier than good birch bark.

Several bad choices (beginner's mistakes I guess) was made during construction.

First of all. It is extremely important not to rip the bark at any point along the process. Some knotholes are easy to patch, but cracks only worsen as the bark dries. Be sure to make proper cuts before attempting to free the bark from the tree (which was about 50 cm in diametre, but could have been smaller).

Next. Use an absolutely level bed for building the canoe. Otherwise the canoe will become twisted.

Do all the sewing in one day in a shady spot. Drying will make the bark more prone to cracking.

And lastly, don't cut the gores. Sewing them up later is very hard. Crimp them.

Overall, the canoe worked quite well. At least when the bark was fresh. The bark shrinks a lot when it dries, so don't have any ribs in there then (maybe loosly fitted). You may even have to make new spruce root lashings, since they become loose after the bark has shrunk.

Doing things properly with as few cracks as possible will save you a lot of irritation over leaks and lots of pitch. The canoe has now been declared unusable after I overstrained the hull when trying to refit the ribs after drying. But I hope to make another next, if not this year.

If anyone is interested in knowing about the literature I refer to, I will try to dig it up and I can post the titles here.

Torjus Gaaren

Birchbark canoes are also constantly shrinking. They never quit shrinking. The only preservative for a birchbark canoe is water. Ribs should only be refit after a thourough wetting (completely immersed) for half a day. You never enter a birchbark canoe until it has been in the water at least 20 minutes.

They are a pain in the neck. I sold mine last year.

 

[pierre girard]

The two bikes I've been looking at (went back and checked) were a Giant Cypruss, and a Diamondback Maravista, also, for a bit more money, the Diamondback Menona.

 

[Snufkin]

The two bikes I've been looking at (went back and checked) were a Giant Cypruss, and a Diamondback Maravista, also, for a bit more money, the Diamondback Menona.

Not familiar with the models but they are both reputable companies, Giant being the largest bike manufacturer in the world.

 

[wingstoo]

If we were using smaller sized and slower moving traffic on the roads, surely the roads would become less usable, take a country lane for instance, there are many that currently have a green strip down the middle from vegetation growing in the mud due to lack of use. We often see greenery growing through tarmac on centre reservations on even the busiest of roads. So if a lot of the current traffic became obsolete because the fuel to run them and other general materials diminished, and we went back to horse and wagons, bicycles etc my guess is that roads as we see them today would probably be almost derelict within 5 years. Just another thought when considering the sustainability of transportation.

LS

 

[gunnix]

If we were using smaller sized and slower moving traffic on the roads, surely the roads would become less usable, take a country lane for instance, there are many that currently have a green strip down the middle from vegetation growing in the mud due to lack of use. We often see greenery growing through tarmac on centre reservations on even the busiest of roads. So if a lot of the current traffic became obsolete because the fuel to run them and other general materials diminished, and we went back to horse and wagons, bicycles etc my guess is that roads as we see them today would probably be almost derelict within 5 years. Just another thought when considering the sustainability of transportation.

LS

I don't understand what you mean by your first sentence, do you mean that highways stay good because of all the fast traffic going over it?

I think it's very interesting though, that you bring into attention that roads need a lot of maintenance to stay in perfect condition for traffic like cars.
And if the roads don't get the care they need then they can get bad in only some years. Actually on wikipedia it says roads are designed in Europe to stay good for 30 years, that's quite long.

A quote from wikipedia on roads:
"Pavements are designed for an expected service life. Most European countries have strict standards for road construction that require that most roads should be able to go 30 years or longer between major resurfacings. In the United States new pavements are typically designed for a service life of between 15 and 25 years, depending on the importance of the road. Service life predictions are inherently unreliable due to the difficulty of predicting future traffic and environmental conditions."


I would guess that if we do start using more horses with carts, bikes, etc instead of cars (and buses, trains, planes...). That we would not travel that far and much anymore. So we would definately not need that many roads, nor of such good quality as todays highways, because we'd go slower.

 

[gunnix]

Birchbark canoes are also constantly shrinking. They never quit shrinking. The only preservative for a birchbark canoe is water. Ribs should only be refit after a thourough wetting (completely immersed) for half a day. You never enter a birchbark canoe until it has been in the water at least 20 minutes.

They are a pain in the neck. I sold mine last year.

Do you have any experience with wooden canoes? I know that with wooden ships you also need to let it lie in the water for a while before entering if you took it out before. But is it a pain in the ***?

I ask because I'm going to build my own canoe or kajak next year, but it has to be a wooden one (or bark..).

 

[wingstoo]

I don't understand what you mean by your first sentence, do you mean that highways stay good because of all the fast traffic going over it?

I think it's very interesting though, that you bring into attention that roads need a lot of maintenance to stay in perfect condition for traffic like cars.
And if the roads don't get the care they need then they can get bad in only some years. Actually on wikipedia it says roads are designed in Europe to stay good for 30 years, that's quite long.

QUOTE]

Hi Gunnix,

Not so much the speed of the traffic but the quantity of traffic. If there is a lot of traffic on a road it tends to move debris to the verges. Little, or no slow moving traffic would not have that effect, it would just stay there, if you have a build up of debris in the road (leaves in the autumn especially) that stays there then dust etc will build up and when the seeds start to spread the following year they can become embedded in that, they send down roots that can easily get into any cracks in the surface, then water can get into the surface where the roots have grown, then in the winter the frosts get in and break down the surface even further, then the whole cycle starts again, just that the second year will be worse.

If the roads are kept clear of debris, by high volume and high speed traffic it stops this happening, and with the maintenance crews out patching, repairing, scraping and brushing the surface on a regular basis I can see that some surfaces could last longer than 30 years.

As you say, less traffic, less roads, less commuting to find work, less air travel, less heavy shipping, smaller world, more countryside for us to ride our horses or bikes in, sounds good to me...

LS

 

[pierre girard]

Do you have any experience with wooden canoes? I know that with wooden ships you also need to let it lie in the water for a while before entering if you took it out before. But is it a pain in the ***?

I ask because I'm going to build my own canoe or kajak next year, but it has to be a wooden one (or bark..).

My first watercraft was a boat built of one ten inch board on each side, a short board for the transom, and boards going from chine to chine across the bottom. In the spring there was about a 1/4 inch crack between each board. the boat had to lay in the water for two weeks before it seized up. Then it woulod be tight for the rest of the summer.

I've built cedar strip canoes, but they were layerd with fiber glass on the inside and outside and so needed no "seizing."

I've owned canvas/wood canoes, but again, they needed no seizing as the painted canvas was (supposedly) impervious to water.

 

[gunnix]

Interesting post, ludlowsurvivors!

wow, pierre, two weeks in the water. That's pretty long!
How did the people centuries ago deal with their canoes?! Did they just let them lie in the water? How long did their canoes last?