Pheasants.

  • Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Camel

Forager
Nov 5, 2012
129
0
London
I have a bit of confusion understanding why the "estates" aren't considerred farms? They're raising a crop (the pheasant) and apperently making a profit by charging to allow others to harvest that crop. What's wrong with that? Isn't that what farms do? Make a profit from a crop or livestock?


An estate can be a few things in this context but generally it can be taken to mean a large holding of land ( let's say over a couple of thousand acres to pluck a figure from thin air) where the shooting is under the control of a commercial organisation providing shooting days.

This is distinct from say a syndicate where a group of guns put into a pot from which land is leased, gamekeepers hired, pheasants, equipment and feed bought in.

The commercialism of the former is not to everyone's taste, and the big days are expensive, but they certainly do contribute to the rural economy.

In all cases the habitat is managed for the benefit of the birds, which usually benefits other wildlife.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
That's the thing I had trouble with while stationed there mary; the lack of places to hunt. The base did allow us the opportunity once a year but that wasn'r much and even that was limited to rabbits.

A far cry from what I grew up with where most landowners had no problem allowing hunting on their land (even now it's not that dificult although they may charge for the deer lease) And almost all public owned land was and still is open for public hunting (national and state forests and open range) as is the land owned by the timber plantations (who charge a small fee like the other private landowners now)

In fact the public land (the national and state forests) are often developed in part to better the opportunities for public hunting; Among other things, the Blackwater State Forest near me has several deer cleaning stations with hoists, stailess steel covered tables, and water hoses as well as disposal facilities for the offal; all for public use.
 

Camel

Forager
Nov 5, 2012
129
0
London
Camel I'm a good vegetarian, but I will skin, gut, process and cook meat. It's just not 'food', iimmc.
I do decry poorly skilled shooting, fishing, slaughtering that causes unnecessary suffering, but I have no issues with taking meat for food or to kill vermin that despoil food and homes.

I think a seachange is needed in the sporting aspect of game laws and conservation, but that leads us into political topics and those we don't do here.

Toddy

Ah. :D

How will outlawing driven shooting make shooting more egalitarian in the UK as you mention in your post to Santaman above?

It seems to me that it will just outlaw driven shooting.

Poor shooting would result in myself, and any of the people I know, becoming bereft of shooting in very short order, quite apart from the fact that I and the vast majority of shooters make a point of being proficient at their sport. We don't like to wound animals either mate.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
An estate can be a few things in this context but generally it can be taken to mean a large holding of land ( let's say over a couple of thousand acres to pluck a figure from thin air) where the shooting is under the control of a commercial organisation providing shooting days.

This is distinct from say a syndicate where a group of guns put into a pot from which land is leased, gamekeepers hired, pheasants, equipment and feed bought in.

The commercialism of the former is not to everyone's taste, and the big days are expensive, but they certainly do contribute to the rural economy.

In all cases the habitat is managed for the benefit of the birds, which usually benefits other wildlife.

Much like the quail plantations here. They're big and commercial as well as expensive. The last time I checked it was about $300-$400 per person for a single day and extra if you wanted to keep more than the dailt limit of 12-24 birds. And that was only for a day shoot, accomadation was extra.

That said, they were and are still basiclly an agricultural operation that benefits all the other fauna as well.

The syndicates you mention sound very much like the "hunting clubs" here that lease the hunting rights (deer hunting) on tracts of land. The difference being that the land in question is always ordinary farmland being actively farmed (whether for food crops or timber) or ranched for livestock and the hunting lease is a secondary income for the farmer/rancher.

But neither is looked down on by anyone other than the complete anti-hunting groups.
 
Last edited:

Camel

Forager
Nov 5, 2012
129
0
London
That's the thing I had trouble with while stationed there mary; the lack of places to hunt. The base did allow us the opportunity once a year but that wasn'r much and even that was limited to rabbits.

A far cry from what I grew up with where most landowners had no problem allowing hunting on their land (even now it's not that dificult although they may charge for the deer lease) And almost all public owned land was and still is open for public hunting (national and state forests and open range) as is the land owned by the timber plantations (who charge a small fee like the other private landowners now)

In fact the public land (the national and state forests) are often developed in part to better the opportunities for public hunting; Among other things, the Blackwater State Forest near me has several deer cleaning stations with hoists, stailess steel covered tables, and water hoses as well as disposal facilities for the offal; all for public use.


Very true but on the other hand with more unregulated hunters in the field comes short seasons, more hunting accidents and more slobby hunters.

I'm not saying that hunting shouldn't be available to all, but the Scandinavian or Germanic systems seem to me to be the best model for egalitarian, safe and effective hunting.

However, even there the rich guys shoot more than us mere mortals. :D
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Very true but on the other hand with more unregulated hunters in the field comes short seasons, more hunting accidents and more slobby hunters.

I'm not saying that hunting shouldn't be available to all, but the Scandinavian or Germanic systems seem to me to be the best model for egalitarian, safe and effective hunting.

However, even there the rich guys shoot more than us mere mortals. :D

All hunters here (those born after 1975) have to take a hunter safety course before they can get their license (mind that a license isn't needed if shooting on your own land or if under age 16) The problem I had with the German system (as I read about it) was the requirement to demonstrate how to cook the various parts (including the liver and organs) Why is that a problem? Well frankly I don't think they should tell me just what parts are or are not edible. If I want to cook the liver fine. On the other hand if I want to feed it to the dogs that should be my business also. In neither case will it go to waste.
 
Last edited:

Docherty

Tenderfoot
May 11, 2010
99
0
38
Dorset
Well that was a thoroughly depressing read, and without coming across as a right cantankerous so-and-so, I think some of you folks should know better than to engage in this kind of talk... any chance of getting this topic locked before this class-war, reverse elitism and territotialism spreads through the forum?
 

Camel

Forager
Nov 5, 2012
129
0
London
Much like the quail plantations here. They're big and commercial as well as expensive. The last time I checked it was about $300-$400 per person for a single day and extra if you wanted to keep more than the dailt limit of 12-24 birds. And that was only for a day shoot, accomadation was extra.

That said, they were and are still basiclly an agricultural operation that benefits all the other fauna as well.

The syndicates you mention sound very much like the "hunting clubs" here that lease the hunting rights (deer hunting) on tracts of land. The difference being that the land in question is always ordinary farmland being actively farmed (whether for food crops or timber) or ranched for livestock and the hunting lease is a secondary income for the farmer/rancher.

But neither is looked down on by anyone other than the complete anti-hunting groups.

Again, my apologies as once again the need for brevity has given an incomplete picture.

In both cases the land will have a primary, agricultural use. Here also, except for grouse moors perhaps, shooting is an adjunct to income or the land owner, albeit an important one. Land is not fenced off and set aside just for shooting, private land remains private land however.

Your Quail/deer and hog lease analogy is basically sound, enjoyment of the one is no bar to participation in the other.
 

Camel

Forager
Nov 5, 2012
129
0
London
Well that was a thoroughly depressing read, and without coming across as a right cantankerous so-and-so, I think some of you folks should know better than to engage in this kind of talk... any chance of getting this topic locked before this class-war, reverse elitism and territotialism spreads through the forum?

Better to engage and find common ground though perhaps?

Hunters have as much of an vested interest in conservation and the enjoyment of the outdoors as other users.

Perhaps a slightly inappropriate time for a direct quote from Mao but surely better to let a hundred flowers blossom? :D
 

Docherty

Tenderfoot
May 11, 2010
99
0
38
Dorset
I hunt (for the sport and the food) and I'm all for finding common ground. It just seems that people are being purposefully inflammatory and insulting.
Blast, I've been sucked into the discussion!
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
I hunt (for the sport and the food) and I'm all for finding common ground. It just seems that people are being purposefully inflammatory and insulting.
Blast, I've been sucked into the discussion!

LOL. It's difficult not to isn't it.

You're correct though that we should tone it down a bit. The problem escalates when one perceives an insult (real or not) There's an instinctive urge to go tit for tat and that gets us nowhere. I think Robbi was right saying that there's a bit of trolling going on. Lets not get sucked into it.
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
78
Cornwall
To be clear, the post on another topic of someone's experience of lone wildfowling was interesting one and I have no problem at all with the shooting of a single goose for the pot, done accurately and at the cost of some effort on the
part of the shooter. If we are to regard shooting estates as farms and the shoot as a rather expensive way of harvesting the crop that is fine by me. However, if this is so then regulations on the battery breeding of pheasants for the shoot must be up to farm welfare standard, regulations against stock straying and causing traffic hazards should be applied and the level of how humane the slaughtering process is should be monitored. In all respects many shooting estates would fall short at present if they are to be judged as farms, you cannot, for example, invite shotgun owners in at at £1000 a head to pot at your pigs or even for free on "pig beaters' days".

The given history of fairs has been called Marxist but the history of fairs is what it is and I would be interested to read an alternative history that did not include the facts as presented.
 

Camel

Forager
Nov 5, 2012
129
0
London
'morning Nomad.

I did not say Marxist analysis as if it were an insult, I say essentially Marxist because although the class relations portion was there little attention was paid to the socio-economic aspect of the changes in the countryside from the Victorian, properly the Industrial Revolution, onwards.

As the issue or more or less irrelevant to the thread, except as an example of how recently traditions may come about and being mindful of the fact that politics are not be discussed here perhaps a matter for another thread.

What is interesting however is that the issue of class was foremost in your analysis over the other factors that might have been explored in the fuller picture.

Pheasant farms, the one's that produce the poults, are as regulated as any other poultry farm and the living conditions in the pens and woodland are a damn sight better than even "free-range" chicken farms.

Traffic hazards are of course carefully considered in the vast majority of shoots, we are using guns and there is no joking around in this matter. The shoots that do not pay attention to safety are very soon visited by the police and rendered defunct.

In Europe, you can indeed invite shooters in at £1000 a pop to shoot driven pigs. ;)
 
Last edited:

Camel

Forager
Nov 5, 2012
129
0
London
Last edited:

Camel

Forager
Nov 5, 2012
129
0
London
Every year in Britain, around 50 million pheasants and partridges are mass-produced like
factory-farmed chickens so that they can be shot down by wealthy 'guns', who commonly pay
£1,000 per day for the 'privilege'.

I see where you get the £1000 figure from. What difference does it make if the guns are wealthy or not? Could you suggest a maximal income level for participants in rural pursuits in the alternative? The misplaced class prejudice makes an entrance rather early on in this document doesn't it?

Industry statistics reveal that it costs at least 100 times more to produce a pheasant and to get
that bird airborne than the shot bird will ever earn for the shoot when sold to a dealer – clear
evidence, if it were needed, that this is an industry dedicated to rearing birds for ‘sport’ rather
than for food (Shooting Times, 19 January 2011).

Indeed it does, please refer to the documents above to find out where this money goes. Sport or food is a simplistic way of looking at shooting in the UK.

‘Game bird’ production typically involves the use of metal battery cages for breeding birds, as
well as industrial hatcheries, sheds and large pens.
• Hundreds of thousands of pheasants and partridges are confined for the whole of their
productive lives (around two years) in the kind of battery cages used for egg-laying hens.
Incarcerating chickens in such cages has attracted widespread condemnation from the public
and politicians across Europe, and moves are afoot to get them banned.
• In 2010, DEFRA Minister, Jim Paice, withdrew a Code of Practice for game bird production
that would have outlawed battery cages for breeding pheasants, and replaced it with one that
will effectively allow the cages to stay – albeit in their so-called ‘enriched’ form. This
generally means that they have a green plastic ‘curtain’ set towards the back of the cage for
privacy and a piece of dowel suspended on two bricks for perching. In reality, these
‘improvements’ make little difference to the bleak prisons and the distress of the caged birds.
• One male and between eight and ten female pheasants are imprisoned inside a galvanised
steel box fitted with a wire mesh sloping floor (so that the eggs can roll through for easy
collection). The roof is usually made from flexible wire netting, though some cages are
covered by rigid wire mesh, against which agitated birds repeatedly throw themselves and
cause physical injury. The cages are exposed to the elements and the birds have little respite
from the wind, rain, frost, snow or sun.
• Partridges are confined in breeding pairs in metal boxes that are correspondingly smaller and
just as bleak as the pheasant units.


"Pheasant farms, the one's that produce the poults, are as regulated as any other poultry farm "

Animal Aid’s undercover evidence of both the barren and the ‘enriched’ cage systems
demonstrate that the caged birds suffer a high incidence of emaciation, feather-loss and back
and head wounds. Many of the pheasants lunge repeatedly at their cage roofs in a forlorn
attempt to escape. The resulting damage to their heads is known as ‘scalping’.
• In an effort to eliminate the aggression among the birds caused by the crowded conditions in
the breeding cages, rearing sheds and release pens, gamekeepers fit the birds with restraining
devices over their beaks to prevent them from pecking their cage-mates. Even so, many still
suffer injuries and are fitted with protective dressings.
• The eggs are collected, incubated in ovens and, once hatched, the chicks are moved to heated
sheds, each typically holding one or two hundred birds. Attached to each shed is a small
outdoor covered run, to which the birds have access once they are considered hardy enough

"Pheasant farms, the one's that produce the poults, are as regulated as any other poultry farm "

At seven or eight weeks they are moved from the sheds to release enclosures – large fenced-in
units that can hold thousands of birds.
• As the partridge and pheasant shooting seasons approach (they extend from 1 September to 1
February) the birds are encouraged into fields of cover crops and, come shooting days, are
beaten up into the sky to serve as feathered targets.

This is how they are shot. Chicken are put in truck and taken to abattoirs where they hung by their legs alive and processed as simple commodities. It would appear then that the first rural business Animalaid should tackle are poultry farmers. At least, going by this document.

Because of the enfeeblement that results from being reared in captivity, around half of the
birds die before they can be gunned down. They perish from exposure, starvation, disease,
predation or under the wheels of motor vehicles

Any keeper worth his salt would not show these sorts of birds. A shoot would rapidly go out of business if it got around that it was populated by birds suffering from "enfeeblement that results from being reared in captivity".

A mortality rate of 50% from illness and deformity would simply not be accepted by anyone, this is not how shoots are run.
They are released into large pens and then the woods, this is far more space than even the luckiest free-range chicken would have and so I suspect if the above is true, the mortality rate for the same chickens must be incomparably higher. That it is not is telling.

Given that a small group of shooters can kill up to 500 birds a day, many who survive long
enough to be shot and recovered are not actually eaten. According to an editorial in Country
Life magazine (February 1, 2001) some of the 'surplus' is buried in specially dug holes.

Not on any of the shoots I've been on. Sure some birds are beyond eating for one reason or another but the idea that a keeper answering to the estate manger or syndicate captain would bury money out of pure cussedness is palpably ludicrous.

Large numbers of pheasants and partridges inevitably attract – and, in fact, boost the
populations of – predator species such as stoats, weasels, foxes and members of the crow
family. Gamekeepers deliberately kill them through the use of guns, traps, snares and poison.
Species ranging from badgers to cats and dogs – and even protected birds of prey like owls
and kestrels – are caught and killed. Millions of animals are slaughtered every year in these
'predator control' programmes. Because some other species, who do not threaten gamebird
production (such as ground nesting birds), are not persecuted, the industry promotes its
slaughter of wildlife as a vital conservation effort.

And Lapwings, and butterflies and etc, etc. Please documents posted for further detail.

Part of this managing predator population. You will of course have seen the research that came out Israel a while ago showing that roe fawn mortality was in the main ( around 75% ) due to fox predation. As you manage the foxes for the birds, you bring side benefits in for other species.

Of course they are deliberately killed, any man who scores a significant portion of his kills with a firearm by "accident" shouldn't have a firearm.


Thousands of tonnes of toxic lead shot are released into the environment every year by
shooters.

I would be most interested to see the reference for this, banning lead in shot in land seems to be on shaky scientific ground.

The release of scores of millions of gamebirds every autumn presents problems for native
wildlife who must compete for food and cover.

Sorry but complete nonsense, see figure presented in documents and note that these pheasants are usually fed. The feeders feed the wildlife more than they do the pheasants as they are in the woods 24/7.

The production and rearing of ‘game birds’ is not covered by any specific legislation. The
Code of Practice for the Welfare of Gamebirds Reared for Sporting Purposes, which was
heavily influenced by the shooting industry, was adopted under the coalition government as a
practical guide under the 2006 Animal Welfare Act (AWA). This Code legitimises the most
brutal form of factory farming – including the use of battery cages for breeding game birds –
on behalf of an industry dedicated to producing millions of birds every year so that they can
be shot down for sport.
• Under Section 4 of the AWA, an offence is committed when an animal is subjected to
‘unnecessary suffering’ and, under Section 9 of the Act, when a person responsible for an
animal fails in his or her duty of care. The suffering experienced by these birds, while they
are being fattened for the kill and as they repeatedly run the gauntlet of the guns, cannot
plausibly be justified as ‘necessary’. Equally, those responsible for the birds are self-evidently
failing in their statutory duty of care.

I would like to see a brief advance this argument in open court. :D

In Holland, producing birds for 'sport shooting' was first curbed in 1986 and outlawed entirely
in 2002. The action was taken because the practice was judged to be morally and
environmentally unsupportable. Animal Aid is calling for a similar ban to be introduced into
Britain. As a matter of urgency, we are calling for a ban on the use of battery cages.

I would like to see a ban on battery laying methods for birds. It is rather cruel to me to take a creature capable of flight and shut it up in a cage, perhaps more so than pig stalls or other forms of the rural economy that escape the ire of antis because they can't tie "guns" into it.

It appears your objection to shooting has morphed into a discussion on animal welfare, is this a side issue to the demographic question or is it now the main thrust of the discussion?
 
Last edited:

Bushwhacker

Banned
Jun 26, 2008
3,882
8
Dorset
ant.jpg
 
OK then Back to the original Post.......

Depends on if your talking legally or realistically....

Legally if its on your land or you have the land owners permission & you comply with what fishfish (post #3) said why not

Realistically...... if no-ones looking who cares....

Not that I nor anyone connected with BCUK condones or advocates doing anything illegally.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
......In all respects many shooting estates would fall short at present if they are to be judged as farms, you cannot, for example, invite shotgun owners in at at £1000 a head to pot at your pigs or even for free on "pig beaters' days".....

Why not? I know several farmers that charge for people to shoot pigs on their property. Got to admit though that there are no "pig beater's days" as most of them bring their own pig dogs.

For that matter I remember one cow that we shot because it couldn't be caught to be butchered.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
....breeding of pheasants for the shoot must be up to farm welfare standard, regulations against stock straying and causing traffic hazards should be applied....

I can just imagine how you'd react to driving on open range. The grazing rights are leased from the BLM by private ranchers and the cattle roam freely until they are rounded up for sale or slaughter. It's interesting to be driving 80+ mph when one crosses an Interstate Highway (motorway) If you hit it, you're liable to the owner for damages.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

BCUK Shop

We have a a number of knives, T-Shirts and other items for sale.

SHOP HERE