Pheasants.

[British Red]

I think the cultural divide is enormous on this one BR.

Maybe that says it all.

atb,
M

I think so too - it seems like a desparate search for an absent victim. The pheasants get a better life than "cheap food" battery farmed chickens - and are sold to people who wish to eat them for the same price as the cheapest chicken - despite being more "free range" than any farmed bird, the beaters enjoy it, its good for the economy. wildlife benefits, the environment benefits, but there is a scrabble to find a "victim". That's a culture that I just don't understand at all. It seems to me like a search to attack something that (contrary to the facts) is seen as a "toff" sport (where in reality many shoots are actually syndicates run for the enjoyment of the members by every day folks). But the perception is what colours the need to attack it - rather than the facts.

I really do wish that people who desire to attack country pursuits would step back from their motivations and actually look at the facts now and again.

But as you say - there is a huge cultural divide on the subject - a divide of emotion vs fact.-

Look at all the people on this thread that are happy to beat - its a day out. its fun. But you want to be offended on their behalf. I consider them capable of making their own mind up of how they choose to spend their time. As Bushwhacker has said - its not a job, its easy meat. I see it as a walk, with a free lunch, some free meat and maybe a few quid as a thank you. Its the way of the country. Why not just let those who want to do it, do it.

Honestly - most adults are quite capable of deciding how to spend their time on a weekend.

 

[santaman2000]

I keep seeing the argument back and forth about the "low" payment to the beaters. But then I see several posts stating that the beaters often get a day's shooting themselves, the "beaters' day?"

Assuming that's true (and I have no reason to doubt anyone on here) and the other post stating that commercial shoots often caharge arounf 1000 pounds per gun per day; then aren't the beaters actually getting at least 1000 pounds worth of services in kind?

 

[boatman]

Not sure that shooting to driven game can be called a traditional country pursuit as it only really came in with cartridge firing shotguns. Would approximately 150 years of existence be fair? Of course game has been preserved for very much longer in England. Preserved with savage laws and inhumane means such as mantraps. So what particular tradition is pheasant shooting preserving? Countryside repression and class war waged by landowners?

Of course beating can provide a pleasant day out if you don't mind being patronised but any value to shooting can only be judged by current norms not by an appeal to a non- existent tradition.

 

[boatman]

Just a further thought on the much vaunted Beater's Day. I am sure they might exist somewhere although I not personally come across them. However, not much use if you don't have a shotgun. Presumably if you have one already you might have a place or a permission to shoot so why would you bother to beat for other people? If you do not have a shotgun then there would be the expense of getting one plus all the other expense and bother of the gun safe etc. All for one shoot a year, possibly? Good luck if anyone thinks being lent a gun and the others being happy at an apparent novice banging away besides them as the solution.

 

[santaman2000]

Not sure that shooting to driven game can be called a traditional country pursuit as it only really came in with cartridge firing shotguns. Would approximately 150 years of existence be fair?.....

So 150 years isn't long enough to be a tradition? That's approximately 5 generations? Less if you count a generation by total lifespan, more if you count a generation by the number of generations descended in that time.

Or does the RAF not have any traditions? Or the RCMP?

 

[santaman2000]

Just a further thought on the much vaunted Beater's Day. I am sure they might exist somewhere although I not personally come across them. However, not much use if you don't have a shotgun. Presumably if you have one already you might have a place or a permission to shoot so why would you bother to beat for other people? If you do not have a shotgun then there would be the expense of getting one plus all the other expense and bother of the gun safe etc. All for one shoot a year, possibly? Good luck if anyone thinks being lent a gun and the others being happy at an apparent novice banging away besides them as the solution.

I don't know about the details of the "beaters' day" so I cain't really comment on that. But as to having a "novice" banging away; well, I certainly intend to take my 11 year old Godson hunting again this year (albeit with his rifle the same way I learned at his age) EVERYBODY starts as a novice. Unless you know of some majical place where shooters are born proficient.

 

[British Red]

Not sure that shooting to driven game can be called a traditional country pursuit as it only really came in with cartridge firing shotguns. Would approximately 150 years of existence be fair? Of course game has been preserved for very much longer in England. Preserved with savage laws and inhumane means such as mantraps. So what particular tradition is pheasant shooting preserving? Countryside repression and class war waged by landowners?

Of course beating can provide a pleasant day out if you don't mind being patronised but any value to shooting can only be judged by current norms not by an appeal to a non- existent tradition.

What absoluete nonsense - driven shooting was around in the days of muzzle loaders and even back to arrow and bolt firing. Pheasants aren't native to this country - they were introduced to be hunted - by the Normans. I suspect they didn't have many cartridge firing guns. Why do you make things up that aren't true to justify your position?

I suspect if you have been patronised, thats more down to your attitude than other peoples - so determined to be the saviour of the proletariat (who don't want saving by you or anyone else).

As for beaters days - no, you don't need a permission to own a shotgun - I would have thought someone so schooled in country ways would know this. Many people own shotguns for clay pigeon shooting, vermin shooting - all sorts of reasons, but legally no reason is needed.

 

[Joonsy]

Hi, it seems to me the ‘tradition’ of pheasant shooting has changed enormously over it’s history, originally it would have been a sport practiced by wealthy privileged landowners only by private invitation, beaters would have come from the estates workforce which was enormous in those days and possibly topped up by some local villagers, I don’t know but I doubt if beaters received any payment back in those days, pheasant meat commanded a high price and was an expensive luxury eaten mostly by the wealthy, poachers faced severe consequences if caught pheasant poaching far more severe than rabbit poaching, beaters and gamekeepers wore a uniform often specific to a particular estate, originally pheasant stocks on estates and numbers shot was quite low but with improved rearing methods stocks and numbers shot became very high indeed before war broke out in the 1930s. Since the end of the second world war the sport has had an enormous change, many estates became derelict, some had been confiscated for the war effort, some were lost through high taxation and wealthy landowners lost a little of the enormous power they held before the war, social change was taking place and pheasant shooting had to adapt too if it was to survive. Nowadays pheasant shooting has little resemblance to the sport practiced before the war, most is syndicate shooting and any group of pals can form their own shoot provided they can find the ground to rent, you do not have to be wealthy anymore to go pheasant shooting and the sport is open to anyone, there are still some exclusive shoots around but there is an opportunity for anyone to shoot nowadays which didn’t exist before the war, etiquette and dress code has changed from the years when uniforms were the fashion, the price paid by gamedealers has plummeted and pheasant is now a very cheap meat to buy and the low price means they are no longer such a valuable target for the professional poacher though there will always be some opportunistics taking the odd one, rearing methods have changed beyond all recognition and many shoots now just buy in poults, beaters come from far and wide and are paid a small sum of about £20-£25 plus a brace of birds, many beaters do come from the towns with transport being better nowadays and see it as their chance get out in the countryside, some shoots do have a beaters day at the end of the season provided they can find other beaters to beat for them, some just like to get the chance to use their dogs for picking-up shot birds and runners. As for behaviour on shoots in all walks of life there are good and bad sorts, and I have to say I have experienced both, it is up to the shoot organisers to ensure the bad are brought to account and failure to do so is inexcusable. (PS a good book is Fifty Years a Gamekeeper by Norman Mursell, as is The Notorious Poacher by George Bedson, who my brother met before the authors death).

 

[abominable_scouse_monster]

Santaman2000, Driven days where common well before cartridge loading gun's, they where just labour intensive. Loaders where used but rather than the one per gun that you very occasionally see they had two or three doing it normally one of the young keepers or household staff who could reliably load a gun. During the return of Soldiers from a conflict some who lived or worked near shooting estates where given quite good money to act as loaders for the estate to to point it was considered unsporting to have a professional load for you.

 

[santaman2000]

Santaman2000, Driven days where common well before cartridge loading gun's, they where just labour intensive. Loaders where used but rather than the one per gun that you very occasionally see they had two or three doing it normally one of the young keepers or household staff who could reliably load a gun. During the return of Soldiers from a conflict some who lived or worked near shooting estates where given quite good money to act as loaders for the estate to to point it was considered unsporting to have a professional load for you.

That all sounds perfectly logical. Thanks.

 

[abominable_scouse_monster]

Just for reference, Napoleon was chased by rabbits at a driven shoot once (well before the day's of percussion cap and cartridge / needle fire) while not Pheasants it just illustrates the point, that driven day's existed. http://archiearchive.wordpress.com/2009/07/27/napoleons-most-humiliating-defeat/

Santaman, if your interested I can dig out a essay I wrote at collage I did covering the history of Gamekeepers on a single estate I have a whole 10 page section on the weapons and methods used right from Match lock and Wheel lock right up to WW2.

 

[demographic]

The analogy of Pheasants being like hand reared chickens is a perfectly valid one in my opinion.
Not very wild and will practically land on the end of your gun, basically they fly a bit better than a chicken and have longer tails but other than that I couldn't call them sport.

Still people get paid to rear them so its all good for the bank, even if they are long tailed, slightly better flying chickens.

 

[santaman2000]

The analogy of Pheasants being like hand reared chickens is a perfectly valid one in my opinion.
Not very wild and will practically land on the end of your gun, basically they fly a bit better than a chicken and have longer tails but other than that I couldn't call them sport.

Still people get paid to rear them so its all good for the bank, even if they are long tailed, slightly better flying chickens.

Perhaps true. We hunt wild pheasants over here; or at least they do in the Western states. That said, if your shoots are just an enjoyable way to harvest a domestic flock, what's wrong with that?

 

[santaman2000]

Just for reference, Napoleon was chased by rabbits at a driven shoot once (well before the day's of percussion cap and cartridge / needle fire) while not Pheasants it just illustrates the point, that driven day's existed. http://archiearchive.wordpress.com/2009/07/27/napoleons-most-humiliating-defeat/

Santaman, if your interested I can dig out a essay I wrote at collage I did covering the history of Gamekeepers on a single estate I have a whole 10 page section on the weapons and methods used right from Match lock and Wheel lock right up to WW2.

I'd love to but TBH I'm not sure I'd be able to find the time though.

 

[abominable_scouse_monster]

Perhaps true. We hunt wild pheasants over here; or at least they do in the Western states. That said, if your shoots are just an enjoyable way to harvest a domestic flock, what's wrong with that?

In my experience it's only in areas where a shoot no longer exists and the local poachers and farmers are not hunting them too much they get that silly, When I was in collage my estate where I did most if not all my practical work (90% of all the practical) they flew at the slightest hint of a person or dog, towards the end of my 3rd and last year the Gentleman who owned the estate aquierd the sporting rights to another estate up near Southport that had not been shot for a while, the wild population was some what tame only flying at the last moment, My Mate Lee who is now the keeper on both shoots hardly does any rearing for Southport (just a few not more than say 100 birds a year) and reports the Native population is healthy and wings it at the mere sound of some one walking now, the Rabbits are a different story though and me and Lee are drawing up a plan for that along with some tasty recipes, and hopefully some tanning.

And the Essay would be posted for all to read but, you can do it at your leisure and I'll have to find the fecking HDD it's on in my pile of old drives too but please give it a go as the USA has a differing sporting culture from the US I would like to see what you and others think of the history.

 

[santaman2000]

I'd love to see it. Thanks.

 

[boatman]

What absoluete nonsense - driven shooting was around in the days of muzzle loaders and even back to arrow and bolt firing. Pheasants aren't native to this country - they were introduced to be hunted - by the Normans. I suspect they didn't have many cartridge firing guns. Why do you make things up that aren't true to justify your position?

I suspect if you have been patronised, thats more down to your attitude than other peoples - so determined to be the saviour of the proletariat (who don't want saving by you or anyone else).

As for beaters days - no, you don't need a permission to own a shotgun - I would have thought someone so schooled in country ways would know this. Many people own shotguns for clay pigeon shooting, vermin shooting - all sorts of reasons, but legally no reason is needed.

Permission or licence there is formality and expense to be gone through before owning a shotgun which is what I meant. But what I do take exception to is being called a liar which you have done Red so let us look at the facts.

I said "Not sure that shooting to driven game can be called a traditional country pursuit as it only really came in with cartridge firing shotguns. Would approximately 150 years of existence be fair? "

I expressed uncertainty for a start so how could that be a lie?

Can find no real detail that it happened much before the date indicated for the shooting of birds (curb yourself British Red I will get to mammals later). Anybody know of an 18th century painting showing a line of beaters and guns? Plenty with 1 or a few gentlemen with guns and dogs and even a couple of gamekeepers but none to indicate the organised shoot of today, unless someone can reference one? Do we have the Gamebooks or diaries of estates earlier than the mid-nineteenth century that might answer the question? I suspect not any that show the size of huge bags until after this date. in fact if the large bags were not obtained then the whole beating line etc would have been pointless. I open to correction if there is any evidence so show some.

In earlier times the nobs hawked their bird prey and the lower orders netted and limed mostly. Blunt arrowheads were the only sort permitted generally in the Royal Forests and these would have been used on ground game and mostly sitting birds.

So having, probably, established that mass bird shooting is not of great antiquity let us look at other the game with which British Red made his killer of a point. Certainly the aristocracy and especially Royals did indulge in Battue. These were as formal as a Court Masque and more or less contemporary. The "hunters" would be positioned comfortably and captured game, mostly deer and boar would be driven past to be slaughtered to great applause from watching, admiring, ladies. Obviously Napoleon's adventure with the rabbits was of this type of shooting and the fact that tame rabbits had to be acquired is proof that such shooting was not native to that country otherwise there would have been an organised system he could have had used.

In the Middle Ages rabbits were kept in warrens not hunted, the young beast being the ones selected for the table which is why we use the word rabbit rather than coney which is the English word and the one that was used to charge poachers with taking, see other words like pig/pork, sheep/mutton. Pigeons could fly free but they were not hunted and were protected while feeding on the peasants' grain in order that they might nest in dovecotes thereby providing their young or squabs for the landowners' tables.

Incidentally the Romans introduced the pheasant not the Normans but British Red I don't call you a liar for this error, just mistaken.

Then we must look at William Rufus the most famous shooting accident in British history. He was shot while in a Stand with bow and arrow (possibly a crossbow) waiting for a deer that had been harboured the day before by a forester or verderer. Certainly dogs were used to put up the deer but again this is not anything like the shooting of thousands of birds on a great modern shooting estate.

Red, you feel it necessary to bring in the class war element by implying I am some sort of self-appointed spokesman for the proletariat which is palpable nonsense. I report HONESTLY what I have experienced and the conclusions drawn from those experiences. The fact that most "country" people in our Wiltshire village seemed to have the same viewpoint was a happy coincidence.

 

[santaman2000]

....In earlier times the nobs hawked their bird prey and the lower orders netted and limed mostly. Blunt arrowheads were the only sort permitted generally in the Royal Forests and these would have been used on ground game and mostly sitting birds.....

So archery hunting then was vastly different to today? As the current norm is to shoot blunt tipped arrows with extremely large fletching (flu flus) at birds on the wing over here. Shooting at ground sitting birds (apart from turkeys) is illegal.

 

[boatman]

So archery hunting then was vastly different to today? As the current norm is to shoot blunt tipped arrows with extremely large fletching (flu flus) at birds on the wing over here. Shooting at ground sitting birds (apart from turkeys) is illegal.

It certainly was different.

 

[santaman2000]

It certainly was different.

Why? I'm seriously curious.