No Carbs

[Poacherman]

Antibiotics are lifesavers. However, they also have side effects- impacting gut flora and also driving microbial resistance. The trick is only using them when the benefits outweigh the side-effects.

There was a time when they were dished out for any sniffle, as a baby I was given them whenever I was grouchy when teething (so my teeth are permanently stained yellow).

When I was in my late teens, I had a severe (life threatening) bout of pneumonia. I was given very strong antibiotics which wiped out my gut flora- but most probably saved my life. Unfortunately, this also upset my whole digestion and insulin metabolism, so the only way I can manage my weight these days is on a (very) low carb diet. Probably had a genetic predisposition to insulin resistance which the antibiotic treatment triggered- the joys of epigenetics.

[Note: Insulin is the hormone that makes you retain fat and salt- it drives the metabolism so that any excess glucose is removed from the bloodstream and then stored as fat and suppresses excretion of sodium. If your insulin is constantly raised as is the case if you are insulin resistant, you will gain weight, retain salt, blood pressure rises; but if you lower the levels of insulin in the blood by not eating foods that encourage secretion of it, your insulin levels drop, your system will switch to fat-burning metabolic path (we have both available), you excrete sodium and lose/don't gain weight. Of course, persons with a well-functioning insulin metabolism never need to know this because their system just automatically balances properly for them. Unfortunately it seems that quite a few things- PCOS for example- cause insulin resistance].

Actually, you don't need carbs because your metabolic system can manufacture any required glucose from protein and the brain runs happily (better possibly) on ketones, but it does take a while for your metabolism to switch from the glucose-burning (normal minimal but adequate food available) mode to the fat-burning (starvation conditions) mode. We DO however need a certain proportion of amino acids, some fatty acids and vitamins. We also require salts: sodium, potassium, calcium and magnesium in the right proportions. Our ability to extract nutrition from plants is generally not as good as from animal-derived foods because we have evolved to have a ridiculously short gut without proper fermentation capacity. We partly compensate by (a) cooking and (b) traditional food preparation methods based on fermentation.

Apologies for a long post, but I've spend many years following the most recent research on this since my metabolism was seriously screwed up over 30 years ago. Unfortunately, the NHS rules require GPs and clinics to follow the "guidelines" which are not up to date on this. But the information is out there, and test cases where medics who were pursued legally for using the latest research rather than guidelines have won their cases.

Human nature though: most people want a simple pill rather than developing their understanding and switching their whole eating mode to one which gives them the best health (and it's not the same for everyone by any means).

GreyCat.

I guess it's the pills vs lifestyle change I'm all for the lc

 

[Poacherman]

Thanks for trying to things back on track....

The advice that's out there about the modern diet is confusing and can be quite confusing. Health professionals still get it wrong when advising patients. A lot of health related advice online is for the masses and not tailored to the individual.

Any changes to an individuals diet or lifestyle should be done under the guidance of a proper specific professional. If you have issues with your diet or need advice on your diet go see a registered dietitian, not a GP. They're called 'general practitioners' for a reason and they should be sign posting you to the professional that specialises in your individual issue!

With regards to carbs (again, back to the OPs original post), I listed the questions because answering them will go a good way to sorting out the issue.

I don't consciously eat refined sugar. (I know I can't totally avoid it unless I go full cave man) but I do my best to eliminate refined sugar from my diet. Sure, I'll have a cheeky sugary something every now and then as a treat, but it's not a regular in my diet. I've actually become rather sensitive to refined sugar now. So much so, I get the immediate (false) energy rush then the crash after makes me feel very drowsy.

I don't eat as many carbs stated as 'the recommended amount' in general literature. I eat much less and I'm still healthy. I'm very active in my job, and I work out 4 or 5 times a week. As @SaraR says, most people consume too many carbohydrates in their diet.

I'm not a health professional but all my knowledge comes from specific health professionals as I am bit of a geek when it comes to my physical health.

I went for an over 40s health check a few weeks ago and was informed by the GP that I was 'at the top of the BMI recommended for my height and weight and could do with losing a few pounds'.......

I'm guessing it's muscle from gyming 5x a week that's a net positive.

 

[Poacherman]

Antibiotics are lifesavers. However, they also have side effects- impacting gut flora and also driving microbial resistance. The trick is only using them when the benefits outweigh the side-effects.

There was a time when they were dished out for any sniffle, as a baby I was given them whenever I was grouchy when teething (so my teeth are permanently stained yellow).

When I was in my late teens, I had a severe (life threatening) bout of pneumonia. I was given very strong antibiotics which wiped out my gut flora- but most probably saved my life. Unfortunately, this also upset my whole digestion and insulin metabolism, so the only way I can manage my weight these days is on a (very) low carb diet. Probably had a genetic predisposition to insulin resistance which the antibiotic treatment triggered- the joys of epigenetics.

[Note: Insulin is the hormone that makes you retain fat and salt- it drives the metabolism so that any excess glucose is removed from the bloodstream and then stored as fat and suppresses excretion of sodium. If your insulin is constantly raised as is the case if you are insulin resistant, you will gain weight, retain salt, blood pressure rises; but if you lower the levels of insulin in the blood by not eating foods that encourage secretion of it, your insulin levels drop, your system will switch to fat-burning metabolic path (we have both available), you excrete sodium and lose/don't gain weight. Of course, persons with a well-functioning insulin metabolism never need to know this because their system just automatically balances properly for them. Unfortunately it seems that quite a few things- PCOS for example- cause insulin resistance].

Actually, you don't need carbs because your metabolic system can manufacture any required glucose from protein and the brain runs happily (better possibly) on ketones, but it does take a while for your metabolism to switch from the glucose-burning (normal minimal but adequate food available) mode to the fat-burning (starvation conditions) mode. We DO however need a certain proportion of amino acids, some fatty acids and vitamins. We also require salts: sodium, potassium, calcium and magnesium in the right proportions. Our ability to extract nutrition from plants is generally not as good as from animal-derived foods because we have evolved to have a ridiculously short gut without proper fermentation capacity. We partly compensate by (a) cooking and (b) traditional food preparation methods based on fermentation.

Apologies for a long post, but I've spend many years following the most recent research on this since my metabolism was seriously screwed up over 30 years ago. Unfortunately, the NHS rules require GPs and clinics to follow the "guidelines" which are not up to date on this. But the information is out there, and test cases where medics who were pursued legally for using the latest research rather than guidelines have won their cases.

Human nature though: most people want a simple pill rather than developing their understanding and switching their whole eating mode to one which gives them the best health (and it's not the same for everyone by any means).

GreyCat.

Id also like to add I'm omnivorous now but I have gone full keto zero carbs for 8 months nose to tail eating, as a experiment when I was 24 I was in the best shape off my life .

 

[Poacherman]

Its sugar. And very concentrated sugar.

So is Haribo guess what u can eat more off in 1 sitting?the answer is not raw honey.

 

[GreyCat]

Honey vs haribo. Interesting one. Here's my take....

Basic fact: they are not the same chemically. Haribo is mainly glucose whereas honey is mainly fructose. Fructose tastes much "sweeter" than glucose and metabolises differently. Not necessarily better though.....

(Table sugar- sucrose- is one molecule of glucose combined with one molecule of fructose, the first metabolic step is to split sucrose into glucose and fructose).

The traditional thought was that fructose was better for diabetics than glucose as it provokes less of an insulin reaction. However, more recent findings are that the metabolic pathway of fructose may be equally or more damaging. Fructose sidesteps the insulin pathway and is metabolized directly in the liver, and in excess apparently can lead to fatty liver disease- rather like excessive alcohol damage.

Different fruits have not only different quantities of sugar, but different ratios of glucose/fructose.

In principle.... some folks could eat a lot of both honey and Haribo, but honey will taste sweeter so may be more self-limiting in some individuals, and some individuals may get a glucose/insulin crash (prompting more glucose- Haribo- consumption).

Metabolism is complicated, we're all a bit different and unfortunately the "official" NHS guidance is still stuck in the "calories" model which isn't helpful as the ability to extract energy from food varies considerably between people. (Also varies between animals so a cow will get much more out of the same amount of grass than a horse as the cow has a much more effective digestive system for cellulose, the rumen is the magic bit).

GC

 

[Poacherman]

Honey vs haribo. Interesting one. Here's my take....

Basic fact: they are not the same chemically. Haribo is mainly glucose whereas honey is mainly fructose. Fructose tastes much "sweeter" than glucose and metabolises differently. Not necessarily better though.....

(Table sugar- sucrose- is one molecule of glucose combined with one molecule of fructose, the first metabolic step is to split sucrose into glucose and fructose).

The traditional thought was that fructose was better for diabetics than glucose as it provokes less of an insulin reaction. However, more recent findings are that the metabolic pathway of fructose may be equally or more damaging. Fructose sidesteps the insulin pathway and is metabolized directly in the liver, and in excess apparently can lead to fatty liver disease- rather like excessive alcohol damage.

Different fruits have not only different quantities of sugar, but different ratios of glucose/fructose.

In principle.... some folks could eat a lot of both honey and Haribo, but honey will taste sweeter so may be more self-limiting in some individuals, and some individuals may get a glucose/insulin crash (prompting more glucose- Haribo- consumption).

Metabolism is complicated, we're all a bit different and unfortunately the "official" NHS guidance is still stuck in the "calories" model which isn't helpful as the ability to extract energy from food varies considerably between people. (Also varies between animals so a cow will get much more out of the same amount of grass than a horse as the cow has a much more effective digestive system for cellulose, the rumen is the magic bit).

GC

raw unheated honey also has amino acids vitamins minerals and enzymes.

 

[Poacherman]

Honey vs haribo. Interesting one. Here's my take....

Basic fact: they are not the same chemically. Haribo is mainly glucose whereas honey is mainly fructose. Fructose tastes much "sweeter" than glucose and metabolises differently. Not necessarily better though.....

(Table sugar- sucrose- is one molecule of glucose combined with one molecule of fructose, the first metabolic step is to split sucrose into glucose and fructose).

The traditional thought was that fructose was better for diabetics than glucose as it provokes less of an insulin reaction. However, more recent findings are that the metabolic pathway of fructose may be equally or more damaging. Fructose sidesteps the insulin pathway and is metabolized directly in the liver, and in excess apparently can lead to fatty liver disease- rather like excessive alcohol damage.

Different fruits have not only different quantities of sugar, but different ratios of glucose/fructose.

In principle.... some folks could eat a lot of both honey and Haribo, but honey will taste sweeter so may be more self-limiting in some individuals, and some individuals may get a glucose/insulin crash (prompting more glucose- Haribo- consumption).

Metabolism is complicated, we're all a bit different and unfortunately the "official" NHS guidance is still stuck in the "calories" model which isn't helpful as the ability to extract energy from food varies considerably between people. (Also varies between animals so a cow will get much more out of the same amount of grass than a horse as the cow has a much more effective digestive system for cellulose, the rumen is the magic bit).

GC

raw honey also contains sucrose Maltose and oligosacharides in smaller amounts.

 

[Poacherman]

Honey vs haribo. Interesting one. Here's my take....

Basic fact: they are not the same chemically. Haribo is mainly glucose whereas honey is mainly fructose. Fructose tastes much "sweeter" than glucose and metabolises differently. Not necessarily better though.....

(Table sugar- sucrose- is one molecule of glucose combined with one molecule of fructose, the first metabolic step is to split sucrose into glucose and fructose).

The traditional thought was that fructose was better for diabetics than glucose as it provokes less of an insulin reaction. However, more recent findings are that the metabolic pathway of fructose may be equally or more damaging. Fructose sidesteps the insulin pathway and is metabolized directly in the liver, and in excess apparently can lead to fatty liver disease- rather like excessive alcohol damage.

Different fruits have not only different quantities of sugar, but different ratios of glucose/fructose.

In principle.... some folks could eat a lot of both honey and Haribo, but honey will taste sweeter so may be more self-limiting in some individuals, and some individuals may get a glucose/insulin crash (prompting more glucose- Haribo- consumption).

Metabolism is complicated, we're all a bit different and unfortunately the "official" NHS guidance is still stuck in the "calories" model which isn't helpful as the ability to extract energy from food varies considerably between people. (Also varies between animals so a cow will get much more out of the same amount of grass than a horse as the cow has a much more effective digestive system for cellulose, the rumen is the magic bit).

GC

And this proves my point against Mr Neil sugars are not always equal overconsumption off modern fruits "fructose" will and can cause issues but natural honey is hard to overeat.

 

[1 pot hunter]

Science is about actually doing things and finding out for yourself I can pretty much guaranteed a sane person can eat more haribos than raw unheated honey

This is common sense I don't understand how it's even a argument.

 

[1 pot hunter]

paired with fat it isn't fat s lows the uptake off sugar and significantly lowers the gi add Protein to even better.

True.

 

[1 pot hunter]

Depending on the diabetes one is self inflicted through greed, generally the root off the cause ie food addiction needs fixing .Natural honey satisfies u in much smaller amounts without resorting to sweets and other forms off garbage.

The truth hurts some people id advise to go easy on them.

 

[1 pot hunter]

Again, do you have a source I can read that backs this up? I’ve never come across anything that suggests you will just eat less honey than other sweet things. In terms of sugar, it’s just as bad for you - prove me wrong.

To anybody with braincells it's common sense.Honey is way more satiating why u even debating it?

 

[1 pot hunter]

This gets even better. That’s some good science you have going on.

It's simply common sense and that trumps science for simple problems have u heard off occams razor I think that principle applies here.

 

[1 pot hunter]

yet obesity is still increasing with glorious mainstream science well done.Macros are not always equal

FACTS

 

[1 pot hunter]

So is Haribo guess what u can eat more off in 1 sitting?the answer is not raw honey.

Aha v funny but true

 

[nigelp]

To anybody with braincells it's common sense.Honey is way more satiating why u even debating it?

Did you and @Poacherman go to the same school?

 

[Broch]

Did you and @Poacherman go to the same school?

They speak with the same mind (many a true word ....)

 

[nigelp]

They speak with the same mind (many a true word ....)

How strange…

 

[gg012]

It's almost like they are the same person

Sent from underground

 

[GreyCat]

The truth hurts some people id advise to go easy on them.

Or perhaps recognise that they have a damaged insulin response (several things could cause or make someone predisposed) but live in a world where the whole of the dietary and medical main stream recomends sugars/carbs to them. It takes a lot of learning stuff, confidence and stubbornness to push back and take a different path.

I know from personal experience how difficult it is, and to avoid backsliding I liken my inability to deal with glucose in a healthy way to that of an abstaining alcoholic who knows they cannot deal in a healthy way with even one drink......

To be healthy, I must limit carbs (sugars and starches) to 30g a day or less. It is difficult but forces me to cook from scratch and either take food with me when traveling or go without. Soluble and insoluble fibre sources must be managed carefully to maintain gut health. I have had phases in my life where I fell off the wagon, mainly due to mainstream diet/medical advice. It is 20 years of bitter experience that got me back on the wagon just over a year ago, weight dropping again, fitness and energy returning.

Difference is, the need of the alcoholic to abstain from ethanol is widely understood whereas the implications of an insulin response which is out of whack are not.

Those who are fortunate enough to have robust responsive insulin systems could perhaps be more supportive and educative rather than condeming. The social/food culture influences on eating choices should not be underestimated......

GC