Gun talk

[leon-1]

American Barrett light .50 cal rifle (no real bushcraft value but I would like one)

Oh dear, one of my pet hates. It has a very nasty spring inside that pressed metal body that when you fire it sounds like an old bed spring clattering against the body. IIRC it is also semi-retarded blowback. As I say if you are looking at .50 there are better tools for the job.

The PGM industries Hecate for a start is far more accurate and would be my choice of .50/12.75mm.

As far as the L115 is concerned (AI AWSM 0.338), it is a corking tool for most jobs, it has a fair amount of recoil due its lighter weight and size when considering the amount of energy that the cartridge produces. They are very accurate and very well made. The cartridge is based on the 0.375 Holland & Holland IIRC, which in its own right is a very capable calibre.

However, I do tend to wonder why anyone would want one of either the 0.338 or 0.50cal's for use in the UK.

Lawrence has it right with a nice calibre like the 6.5mm Swedish, the cartridge produces a lot of energy propelling that little 6.5mm at a real pace that can take down reindeer / caribou quite happily at 400 meters. It also would be cheaper to feed and less tiring for anyone to use.

 

[Lurch]

Lurch,

You can play with my .357 if you like. I do keep toying with a little practical S/G - theres an active group at our club doing it

My local club has a club lever action, I've only ever had one go and it was faulty (rounds kept falling in the action). Must have another go....
I've the slot for the multi but haven't got around to it, trouble is there is only a half dozen or so shoots at the club - after that you're looking a fair bit of travel. Great fun though.
I can't decide between semi and pump. Sure semi is ever so slightly faster (and is what the Benelli Practical comes in - my number one choice probably) but the pump is so much more fun!

 

[Spacemonkey]

My dad has two lever action 'Winchester' reps one in .357 and one in .44. Both have negligble recoil and are really accurate at 50ms (furthest I've shot it). Our club has lots of clay pigeon fragments on the backstop and I can easily pick off 1-2" diameter fragments at 50m with it. Fairly cheap to buy and run, deffo cheaper than the .50 cal!
I love the Benelli recoil semi too. They also do a cheaper version in tactical rolleyes: ) black under a different brand name for about £550 when I saw one earlier in the year. Not too bad if you can live with the black placcy stock. Looks pretty mean though!
My only toy is kept at my dad's gaff in Spain. It's his old Martini Henry .45/577 that he has 'passed on' to me. Now that thing has some kick to it... here's a pic of it's cartridge compared to a 22LR and a .577 Snider round (which he also has a beast to fire it in)

 

[Buckshot]

I'm currently looking at a underlever as a knock about g un to throw in the Landy when I'm out doing the 'keepering jobs I need to do.
I was thinking about a 44 mag but it's not quite deer legal (it's just under according to a few of the local dealers). The next (fairly) easily avaliable calibre up is likely to be 30-30 so that's probably the way I'll go. After all it's probably taken more white tail deer in the US than any other calibre. I also know of one going for a song atm.
It's not that I want to this as a dedicated deer ri fle but as it's likely to be the only one I have with me most of the time I want the option to take anything that comes along.
My dedicated deer set up is a bit too nice, heavy and long to use as a knock about !

Cheers

Mark

 

[leon-1]

I'm currently looking at a underlever as a knock about g un to throw in the Landy when I'm out doing the 'keepering jobs I need to do.
I was thinking about a 44 mag but it's not quite deer legal (it's just under according to a few of the local dealers). The next (fairly) easily avaliable calibre up is likely to be 30-30 so that's probably the way I'll go. After all it's probably taken more white tail deer in the US than any other calibre. I also know of one going for a song atm.
It's not that I want to this as a dedicated deer ri fle but as it's likely to be the only one I have with me most of the time I want the option to take anything that comes along.
My dedicated deer set up is a bit too nice, heavy and long to use as a knock about !

Cheers

Mark

Mark have you looked into scout type rifles (shorter heavy barrel, leaf iron sights at the rear and bead at the front and if fitted with a scope normally a long focal length scope as used in pistol shooting), there have been a number of articles on them for you to research.

 

[British Red]

Scout rifles...gotta love 'em...see picture above (although I don't get on with long eye relief scopes so I' mounted a low power Leupold with medium relief). The Steyrs are a different price range than that lever gun though..of course they are easy enough to create something similar (although they have to be fairly light to conform to Col. Parkers original design - he died last week sadly btw).

As a thought Mark, do you reload? Hust thinking about that 30-30 (nice round imho) and I guess you will need a flattish tipped head to avoid any chance of slamfire in the tube mag. I guess you would also want expanding. Semi wad expanding 30-30 wouldn't be likely to be common in the gunshops round here - easy enough to make up though.

Now thinking round Leon-1s idea of something Scout based, how about a Lee-Enfield number 5 (Jungle Carbine)? Tough as old boots for a "trunk gun", .303 ball is still widely available (although you'd have to load expanding), cheap as chips and easy to put glass onto with an Armalon "no gunsmithing" mount (drops into the charger guide and mounts to the existing rear sight hole).

I must admit though, I'd be tempted by the lever gun - especially if its a Marlin (side ejector is much betetr I find with opticals than the top ejecting Winchesters or Rossis). Not an issue if you are staying with irons of course

Fun project though...love to see what you end up with

Red

 

[Buckshot]

Mark have you looked into scout type rifles (shorter heavy barrel, leaf iron sights at the rear and bead at the front and if fitted with a scope normally a long focal length scope as used in pistol shooting), there have been a number of articles on them for you to research.

I have Leon, but a bit too long and expensive for the task I want really.
Nice thought though

Mark

 

[Buckshot]

Scout rifles...gotta love 'em...see picture above (although I don't get on with long eye relief scopes so I' mounted a low power Leupold with medium relief). The Steyrs are a different price range than that lever gun though..of course they are easy enough to create something similar (although they have to be fairly light to conform to Col. Parkers original design - he died last week sadly btw).

As a thought Mark, do you reload? Hust thinking about that 30-30 (nice round imho) and I guess you will need a flattish tipped head to avoid any chance of slamfire in the tube mag. I guess you would also want expanding. Semi wad expanding 30-30 wouldn't be likely to be common in the gunshops round here - easy enough to make up though.

Now thinking round Leon-1s idea of something Scout based, how about a Lee-Enfield number 5 (Jungle Carbine)? Tough as old boots for a "trunk gun", .303 ball is still widely available (although you'd have to load expanding), cheap as chips and easy to put glass onto with an Armalon "no gunsmithing" mount (drops into the charger guide and mounts to the existing rear sight hole).

I must admit though, I'd be tempted by the lever gun - especially if its a Marlin (side ejector is much betetr I find with opticals than the top ejecting Winchesters or Rossis). Not an issue if you are staying with irons of course

Fun project though...love to see what you end up with

Red

Red,

I don't reload, I used to for my 1911 and peacemaker but it's not worth it now.
Not sure about the jungle carbine - I've heard they've got a nasty bite!
The 30-30 is a Marlin but I'd be running it on iron sights so the side ejection doesn't matter but I like the slightly bigger lever and stronger action.

TBH I also fancy a 45-70 and then I could put 410 through it as well The external dimentions are the same I'm told. The problem is getting hold of one of those at a reasonable price.
One of my local shops has 2 underlevers both in 45 colt in stock atm - both going for twice as much as the 30-30

 

[British Red]

You are right about the Jungle Carbine being a bit of a beast Mark, but for what you have in mind they would work well (in my head). The short barrel and lighter gun does mean ....erm...well lets put it this way - you know it wasn't a light strike . I put 450 rounds through one in a day about two years ago and lived to tell so they aren't all that bad. Okay I did have a "doh" moment when I picked it up with my left hand on the (unprotected) barrel to show clear after a 120 round sequence (I'm sure the skin will heal soon )

Now I think about it , the later (Ishapore) ones were chambered in 7.62, so a .308 expanding round would be a dead on fit and widely available. You can pick them up for around £300 with a fantastic set of sights too (well compared with those semi buckhorns on the Marlin ). They are also as tough as any rifle I have ever shot - my No. 4 is 65 years old and never misses a beat. I still think that 30-30 is viable though - I'm sure you must know a friendly gunshop who get get you the right round - Kranks or York Guns would have some for sure - lets face it its probably the commonest US hunting round - its just getting fodder in the UK that would be a challenge (an excuse to get your old press out again anyway)

Red

 

[demographic]

<Scott dons his Nomex undercrackers>

I know this might sound a daft question but what use is something like a .50 cal, other that to say to yer mates, "Look what I have"

I am personally fascinated by rifles and balistics but other than for long range sniping aren't they about as much use as a chocolate fireguard?
Not much cop for hunting deer anyway as 11,000 or more foot pounds might be regarded as a tad excessive.

Don't really see the point in handguns either though but there you go.

 

[leon-1]

<Scott dons his Nomex undercrackers>

I know this might sound a daft question but what use is something like a .50 cal, other that to say to yer mates, "Look what I have"

I am personally fascinated by rifles and balistics but other than for long range sniping aren't they about as much use as a chocolate fireguard?

Hmmmmm......

Seems a little familiar

However, I do tend to wonder why anyone would want one of either the 0.338 or 0.50cal's for use in the UK.

Generally the answer would be "because I want one", not because someone has used one.

0.375 Holland & Holland was a very succesfull large game round, the 0.338 was based on that and was actually being used by hunters before the military adopted it.

0.50 cal as is used for the likes of the Barrett is actually 0.50 BMG (Browning Machine Gun), so no surprise what it was developed for. Having said that in days of old in the States they did used to use long guns and these were quite often in and around 0.50 calibre, they tended to be used for taking down the likes of Buffalo with a single shot at long range, so 0.50 is not without some background in the hunting world even if the cartridge or load was not quite the same as that of the current 0.50 BMG.

Also now there are people that target shoot at extreme ranges and 0.50 cal is one of the calibres suited to it.

 

[British Red]

Kinda what Leon-1 said.

To be fair I suspect there are less than a hundred people in the UK who have a slot for .50 BMG (or 12.7 x 108 Russian equivalent). And less than a double handful or ranges on which to use them. SO they have no more point as such than a long bow, or a javelin or a discus. All previously weapons that have evolved into a disciplined sport of concentration and skill. Actually a large .50 cal (often single shot) target rifle is far less likely to be used in any problematic activity than a normal .308 hunting rifle. Why? because its HUGE . Lets see someone conceal a rifle thats 5 foot long and weighs 30 odd lbs Seriously. LIGHT class .50 cal shooting is limited to 32lbs 8oz weight. Heavy class is 50lbs. Yous simply cannot shoot these things offhand. Genuinely you shoot at raised targets. They have to be raised - the curvature of the earth gets in the way otherwise .

As for your "not much cop for deer" observation - too true! They are an extreme range target rifle - no more or less in the UK. The skill involved at hitting a target a mile away is mind boggling. It absolutely is nothing to do with being "macho" or saying to your mates "look what I have". Good shots, and I mean really good shots are unbelievably calm, focussed people. Medical studies have shown that their pulse drops by 25 beats a minute when shooting. Its very calm, deliberate and almost "zen" like. Shooting on the top or bottom of the wind, reading the eddies and haze etc. become a fascinating, if esoteric art. If you like ballistics, do try a 700 yard plus shoot - its an awesome experience

Red

 

[demographic]

Hmmmmm......

Seems a little familiar



Generally the answer would be "because I want one", not because someone has used one.

0.375 Holland & Holland was a very succesfull large game round, the 0.338 was based on that and was actually being used by hunters before the military adopted it.

0.50 cal as is used for the likes of the Barrett is actually 0.50 BMG (Browning Machine Gun), so no surprise what it was developed for. Having said that in days of old in the States they did used to use long guns and these were quite often in and around 0.50 calibre, they tended to be used for taking down the likes of Buffalo with a single shot at long range, so 0.50 is not without some background in the hunting world even if the cartridge or load was not quite the same as that of the current 0.50 BMG.

Also now there are people that target shoot at extreme ranges and 0.50 cal is one of the calibres suited to it.

I read about the 50 90 blackpowder rounds they used for Buffalo but still fail to see the point for .50 BMG in the UK?

.338? never heard of that one as I thought that the US military used to use .308 winchester and now use .223 Remington.

I can remember reading Guns & Ammo years ago (one of my uncles used to get em) about a long range rifle based on the 30-06 Sprinfield (improved) round firing 4" groups at a mile but interesting though it is where in the UK is a .50 browning any use?
Fallow deer?

The IRA notwithstanding.

 

[pothunter]

Rapidboy

Now I'm upset I had forgotten that you still had your handguns.

Buckshot

Have you considered either the Marlin .444 or the .45/70 lever action guns, there is a short barrel guide version in stainless, ugly as sin but might suit if its got to work hard.

Pothunter.

 

[ArkAngel]

There was a similar thread about 50 cals on an airgun forum a few months back...

If you have realplayer take a gander at this:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett/50calt1.rm

The post directly after the link said....

"Hmmmm, i wonder how i can convince my firearms liason officer i need one for long range fox and deer!"

 

[Lurch]

Demo mate, you keep coming back with the 'what use is...?' question.
Target shooting is a sport, that is it's use. Plain and simple. The .50bmg is not a suitable round for hunting anything in the UK.
What use is a formula 1 car? What use is a javelin? What use (as Red says) a long bow?

 

[leon-1]

.338? never heard of that one as I thought that the US military used to use .308 winchester and now use .223 Remington.

.338 is the British armed forces first long range large calibre rifle made by accuracy international, it is commonly know as the Arctic Warfare Super Magnum (AWSM) or has the military designation of L115. It was trialled against the Barrett and the PGM Industries Hecate, amongst others. The AI .50 only arrived for the last part of the trials in Alaska. The trials were pretty long and involved quite a few enviroments rangeing from the UK, through Brunie, Kuwait and Alaska. It has now seen active service and proved itself superior over range than the AW and the L96.

The military do not refer to .308 or .223, they are both referred to as 7.62mm or 5.56mm. The first has a cartridge case of 51mm in lenght (just so that it is not mixed up with the Kurz version with the 39mm case as used in the AK series) and the second has a 45mm Cartrdige case. They are however the same round in basis as thier civilian counterparts.

7.62mm is still in service with the American forces on the M60 as well as the Modified Remington M40A* variants, the M24 sniper variant and the variant of the M21 called the M25 (light sniper rifle).

The major difference for anyone using a large calibre (.338 or .50) is the stability of flight over range due to the weight of the round. To give it a flatter trajectory they have fitted the projectile to a monster casing with a lot of propellant, obviously power and weight is a trade off to get the best result, this is why people use them for extreme range shooting.

If you shoot a lot you get the bug to push your limits (you want to shoot further and more accurately), when you reach a certain range with .308 / 7.62mm they no longer cut the mustard and so you have to change to a tool that can, this is where the long range large calibre rifles start to come into play and @1000 meters a .338 holds the same kinetic energy as a .50. That is a lot of punch for a little rifle.

To demonstrate the difference in weight, the weight of a L115 is approx 15lbs (14.99 actual) without scope, the weight of the PGM Industries Hecate II is 30.36lbs and the weight of the Barrett M82 is 32.5lbs.

If you now think that the heaviest of the remington 700bdl family weighs in at under eight pounds you start to get an idea.

These rifles are large and heavy to give them stability, hence they also have bipods and butt spikes (in some cases), they are designed specifically for long range shooting and pushing your limits.

Believe me when I say these are not the largest out there, there are things like the Mechem NTW-20 and that is a real beast

 

[British Red]

there are things like the Mechem NTW-20 and that is a real beast

Too much for Muntjac then? Only a mere 57 lbs to carry (plus the ammo of course)

Wonder why theres so much eye relief on that scope

Red

 

[leon-1]

Too much for Muntjac then? Only a mere 57 lbs to carry (plus the ammo of course)

Wonder why theres so much eye relief on that scope

Red

I was thinking more along the lines of armour plated prarie dogs or bunnies from Monty Python films.

Very accurate, it is actually fitted with a cylinder for either cold/temperate enviroments which has a blue band or a red one for hot enviroments, they are used to retard some of the recoil.

Very impressive to fire, but three rounds and then have to change mag, what happens if you have only winged the Monty Python bunny and it charges you.

 

[leon-1]

Right to get things a little off the BIG GUNS because I want one, how about this, can people tell me what benefits could be found from having used one of these larger rifles, when using something smaller???