Dogs - who owns what and how did you choose it?

[Paul_B]

The author of the wolf study that started the dominance theory in the 60s is David L. Mech.

The idea of using behaviour studies if wolves is also flawed. It's better option to study wild dogs who don't actually have packs. Domestic dogs don't have packs neither. I think that is the gist of modern thinking on the matter. Any cooperation is purely about best access to available resources.

I don't know much about this myself, having been led to understand that dog training is about dominance, alphas and pack behaviour. It does seem reasonable to see wolf and domestic dog behaviour as being at least slightly different. However even wolf theories on behaviour don't seem to hold to the idea of dominance.

Could all these years of dominance working be a case of the dog working it out for itself rather than dominance and the human actions working? Kind of the dog deferring to an easier life, even if that's against its own best interests/outcomes.

 

[KenThis]

I just want to give my opinion on my border terrier puppy who is 5 and a half months. Please forgive any anthropomorphising

The puppy spends most of her time with me. I am not overly gentle with her. When I want her to sit with me I pick her up. When I want her to stay with me I hold her tight. If she does soemthing she's not supposed to do she gets told. I wouldn't say I mishandle her but I probably do manhandle her. She's a very tough terrier and has put up with everthing. I also have nephews and nieces that play with her, the oldest is 9 and is great the middle is 8 and scared, the youngest 6 is a bit of both.

I explained very early on with the dog, that growling at me was not on. Growling at anybody is not on. When I say growling I mean the agressive type not the playful type. There is a big difference and can be told apart. If she growled aggressively I would hold her and raise my voice, keeping hold of her to let her know I'm the boss and then put her down. She understood immediately that she crossed a line and was mollified and came up to me licking my hand wanting to be friends. In the last 5 and a half months I've had to do it maybe half a dozen times. As far as I'm concerned the puppy is a pet and people must come first. Although I love the puppy she has had to learn her place in the heirarchy.

Because her interactions with the children are sporadic it has been relatively easy to keep the children in line as they are always excited and a little nervous around her. I have explained the puppy is not a toy, that she can get hurt and that if she gets hurt she can and probably will bite them. I've shown them how to play properly with the dog. I have shown them how to stand with the dog to help stop the dog getting over excited. I also get them to help with puppy training which they love. When I puppy does what a child wants on command it's magical, it's like the child thinks the puppy can understand English.

In my opinion at 5 a child can be shown the correct way to handle the puppy. Whenever any of the kids don't play with my puppy appropriately they get a time out away from the puppy. However I would not tolerate any sort of aggression from a puppy of mine. As has been mentioned dogs tend to like a heirarchy and basically to know where they stand. I think you have to ensure that your dog is at the bottom of the pack and that no matter the provocation from the child (obviously within reason) that she should not be aggressive.
Also if your puppy ever yelps in pain due to rough play or accidental harm then it is essential in my view that the puppy has to know it is safe. So whatever caused the pain must be dealt with and the puppy comforted. If the child inadvertantly hurts the dog give the child a temporary time out, comfort the puppy and then make sure the child shows the puppy a little contrition. You see it when puppies are playfighting, if one gets too rough mum nips it in the bud so to speak.

Finally I have just started proper puppy training classes and it has helped me us both a lot. I'm recognising how to train the puppy and the puppy is getting a lot of good social interaction in a controlled set up. A really important part of the lessons is the trainer explaining that some behaviours trigger responses in puppies that we would not expect. The clearest example so far was that wagging a finger does not admonish but is instead an invitation to play....

Anyhow I hope this helps and please remember these are just my opinions from the last few months with my border terrier.

 

[KenThis]

Regarding pack behaviour I agree that some of the dominance stuff is over egged and that there is a lot of stuff that probably doesn't apply to either dogs or wolves. I also read some of the articles indicating domestic dogs are more like wild dogs than wolves. Very interesting.

However from personal experience with my interactions with my puppy I can feel that she understands I'm in charge. She knows where she stands with certain behaviours. She can tell the differences between play and crossing a line etc. I feel like domestic dogs have a natural loyalty to their owners there is a trust there that means that a dog will naturally tend to do what the owner wants and avoid upsetting the owner. Dogs also like rules and routines, my puppy very quickly picked up on knowing when it was time to eat, time to play, time to toilet or go to bed. Domestic dogs naturally like to please their owners, you can see it with training. A treat/bribe might be needed initially but soon a 'good girl' and a belly rub will be enough for the dog to repeat behaviours. Also I can only speak to me and my puppy, but if I'm out of sorts the puppy can feel it and tries to make me feel better.

So when I talk about pack/heirarchy/dominance I'm using it as shorthand for a dogs natural tendency to loyayty, to please an owner, follow rules and routines.
It might not be exactly right but I think it's still an applicable way of thinking about dog training.

 

[Lou]

I've not actually looked them up but the references and summary of the books are listed in this link.

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

There are other articles on this site about behaviour and training dogs. Two articles on the dominance theory and this one asking why it won't die.

Of course it's only an article from an animal behaviourist. I understand he's a member of ASAB which is the academic body for animal behaviourists and the publisher of one of the most respected academic journals on the matter. I think the fact it's an academic body not a trade body indicates it's not something you can buy your way into like the numerous trade marketing bodies for plumbers, electricians, etc.

Thanks for the link I will read it tonight.

 

[santaman2000]

.......
A really important part of the lessons is the trainer explaining that some behaviours trigger responses in puppies that we would not expect. The clearest example so far was that wagging a finger does not admonish but is instead an invitation to play.....

When I was a child and young teenager my cousins who lived next door had a Belgian Malinois that interpreted a finger (wagging or pointed) as a threat. She would respond as if she'd been attacked.

 

[Lou]

quoted from the article: "Preferences will become established in repeated encounters, but pet dog relationships are far too complicated to be defined through a simple, “one individual dominates another”. A smooth relationship is one in which each knows the other’s preferences and defers accordingly. This is often described in terms of resource holding potential(6), but the important aspect of it is that it is emergent, not the result of pre-programmed “dominance”."

Very interesting, thanks for posting it Paul and yes, what I get from all of this is that, as in most every other human/animal, human/habitat, human/human relationship, it is all a lot more complicated and subtle than we try to reduce it down to. Our relationship with our dogs, whether people continue to believe in dominance theories or not (and let's face it, the male dominance theory/meme has been going on in humans for a pretty long time now) will only succeed if we respect the dog as much as we would respect another human being. i.e. in 'which each knows the other’s preferences and defers accordingly' and it's a two-way relationship, as with everything - we respect those who we would like respect from.

There is a great chapter in Tom Brown Jr's 'The Tracker' about him being attacked by a pack of 16 wild dogs and how the dogs' behaviour changes the moment Tom changes his attitude towards them. Quite an eye opener and an example of the 'emergent' behaviour mentioned in the quote above. So I would say it's very much like a dance; a give and take with ever-evolving boundaries. My advice would be to listen, listen, listen to your dog, try and find out what he is really telling you and adjust your behaviour accordingly, that way you can truly 'lead' the pack ;-)

 

[Paul_B]

I think we do a similar thing to kenthis but in our own way. The obvious difference is the child is there all the time except school time. Also it's less possible to watch child and dog all the time. Our issues undoubtedly come from tiredness of some kind.

Our son always got difficult at certain times which corresponds to the time the dog sees him after time apart. One gets excited and naughty. The other reacts and gets excited and nippy or just excited.

The puppy can be good with our son. Better with him than me at times. I'm his chewy toy at times, starts with a kind if sucking my fingers, moves through a mouthing stage and finally becomes a chew/bite. Obviously I stop it.

The dog has learnt my discipline voice. I have about three levels. First is a stop but continue it's only playing. Level 2 is you're attracting m starting to bite harder so it's time out. Level 3 is you've gone too far and of you don't get away you'll get a time out in the metal cage.

Usually the third level gets tail between the legs and a high energy licking campaign!

I've certainly created my own problem with the puppy since I'll take a bit of playing. My partner tolerates no biting, nipping or sucking of fingers. So she does not have any issues with over excited biting.

Our son is part of the problem but it's caused a reaction with the dog that we need to stop.

So far out of the three of us my partner has the best individual relationship without biting (over excitement apart). I have a manageable problem that I could train out, I will or she'll grow out of. Our son has a biggest problem, the growling and his behaviour to the dog.

It's all developing but we're going to get training classes.

 

[santaman2000]

You say you take the playing (I presume some play biting is involved) while your partner doesn't. For a minute lets assume the best (y'all work through this stage and keep both your son and the puppy) The reality as I stated before is the puppy will grow out of this in time anyway. However in the meantime you feel like a pincushion since puppy teeth are as sharp as pins. Is the puppy trying to "dominate you? As some of the previous posts have noted the answer isn't a simple yes/no matter but it is part of their learning just like kids plat wrestling with Dad on the floor.

The smaller of my two current dogs was brought to me much too young to have been taken from her mother (that's another story for another time) She appears to be a corgi/sheltie mix and was an extremely playful/nippy little sh** for a few months. Our situation was similar to what you describe: she only played and roughhoused with me and never with my daughter (who had actually rescued her and brought her home) The end result being she also bonded with me more strongly than with my daughter when she outgrew the playful stage. Much the same story as all puppies I had when I was a kid myself; I was the one playing with them and they all bonded more with me than anybody else (including the rat terrier I mentioned in an earlier post)

The point of all this? If it remains play and you continue being her chief playmate, she'll be more your dog than your partner's or your son's. That's all right though. Most dogs brought up as family pets love the whole family but they'll bond with one person more than the others and it's not about that person being dominant (pack leader) alone.

 

[Lou]

You say you take the playing (I presume some play biting is involved) while your partner doesn't. For a minute lets assume the best (y'all work through this stage and keep both your son and the puppy) The reality as I stated before is the puppy will grow out of this in time anyway. However in the meantime you feel like a pincushion since puppy teeth are as sharp as pins. Is the puppy trying to "dominate you? As some of the previous posts have noted the answer isn't a simple yes/no matter but it is part of their learning just like kids plat wrestling with Dad on the floor.

The smaller of my two current dogs was brought to me much too young to have been taken from her mother (that's another story for another time) She appears to be a corgi/sheltie mix and was an extremely playful/nippy little sh** for a few months. Our situation was similar to what you describe: she only played and roughhoused with me and never with my daughter (who had actually rescued her and brought her home) The end result being she also bonded with me more strongly than with my daughter when she outgrew the playful stage. Much the same story as all puppies I had when I was a kid myself; I was the one playing with them and they all bonded more with me than anybody else (including the rat terrier I mentioned in an earlier post)

The point of all this? If it remains play and you continue being her chief playmate, she'll be more your dog than your partner's or your son's. That's all right though. Most dogs brought up as family pets love the whole family but they'll bond with one person more than the others and it's not about that person being dominant (pack leader) alone.

Totally agree with this as I know I am the most important person in my dog's life. I spend the most time walking, grooming, playing, washing, sleeping and cuddling with her. She gives me a lot back in return. My husband is the dominant character in our house and she respects him but she is much closer to me because we are mates and we just end up doing most things together.

Whereas she will obey my husband 99% of the time, I think we have more of an 'understanding' - she will obey me 80% of the time because the other 20% of the time she can convince me to see her point of view and I do what she wants me to do. I don't mean that she succeeds in getting her own way and that's a bad thing, I mean sometimes she simply knows better than me.

 

[Paul_B]

She's bonding to both my partner and me equally I think. By that I mean she goes through periods when you'd think she was my dog then she changes her mind and she's my partner's dog. She completely chooses who gets her company. Time of day also affects that. I guess she's working out our routine now.

Both myself and my son plays with her. My partner mostly cuddles her (when our son isn't around and secretly from me too). Our son ranges from gentle to rough (a little too rough at times). She has a strong grip of toys and our son will drag her around by them at times. Typical terrier, won't let go!

She'll grip with teeth but also uses front legs a little too. It's funny seeing her dragged over a soft blanket with her front paws and teeth wrapped around a string of sausages and rear legs flat out behind. She's not being hurt and it's play for her.

I've also come to the realization that she seeks play by taunting me and our son. She plays with a favoured toy then brings it close to one of us, growls with it to get our attention. While doing that she's looking to the side of her you're on with her eyes turned not her head. She's looking for movement so she can run away with toy. She repeats a few times until she's certain you're not playing.

I think overall we have an intelligent, confident and well behaved terrier apart from a few terrier traits that's creating issues.

For example, she'll walk to heel of her own accord but not if you put a lead on her. If we're jogging along as a family she'll stick with the back marker even though she's more than able to outpace us all and for much longer time as well. She had recall down quickly (but expecting it to be forgotten as she gets used to outside more). She got her name and sit on third attempt or quicker.

A good 'un I think!

 

[Paul_B]

Thread resurrection.

A few weeks ago our 5 year old son turned to me and my partner to ask a question. That question was "can we get a second dog?"

That resulted in a grin on my face and I told my lass it was for her to answer. Now from day one in this process of choosing a dog a proposed getting two as company for each other. So my view is that two dogs or just one dog is pretty much 50:50 as to what is best for us.

So what came out of my partner's mouth surprised me. She said it was a good idea but let's wait until we get out current dog fully house trained and obedience trained first.

So now I the only one who's not so sure about another dog. How do you introduce a second puppy into the house? What if they don't get on? Unlikely but a possibility.

The other question is do we get the same breed or something different? The border terrier has been a really good choice for us so two would be good and likely to fit in well. However a part of me would like something different. What's your views on a second dog / breed?

If we choose to get a second puppy and a different breed, what would suit a border terrier? Our 4 month old is very active, by that I mean she loves to go out walking with us. She loves running alongside us when we ride on an off road cycle path. This 5 minutes exercise per month of life would not suit her. She doesn't tire out unless we're walking / cycling for at least one hour. Been like that since about 10 weeks old. She's long legged and looks set to be the type of dog to run all day given the chance.

So should I get another BT or what other dog breed would go well with a BT? I'm tempted to get another from the same breeder or his mum (a KC approved / assured breeder). A Patterdale is similar in that they have long legs for terriers and are bred to run with horse and hound on a hunt. However they're difficult breed to train, too likely to turn a terrier's deaf ear. Something our BT can do b but mostly doesn't.

So what's your views / opinions on a second dog?

 

[Janne]

Are you sure you really want another major change in your family structure?
From your previous posts it seemed to be a quite laborious process!

I would ask myself why my son wanted another dog this soon after getting the first one.

 

[Paul_B]

Oh she's fitted in nicely now. Nearly reached the house trained status and once we've got her mischievous habits sorted she'll be just about perfect.

She's got a seemingly jealous streak. If we're busy doing something and not able to pay her attention, when she wants that attention, then she takes her revenge. Usually involves bodily functions in a way they causes the biggest reaction. Such as peeing in my shoe. Or simply defecating in a living room just inside the door, then sitting right behind it, facing the door and chewing something belonging to one of us whilst giving us the same look she gives when she's trying to get us to chase her.

She has bags of personality and character. There have been trials and nothing is easy with taking on a dog but we now know things settle down. Once we all get used to the dog coming into our life then we all get used to our life.

Take a first camping trip as a classic example. It's all new to her and we had no idea how she would take it. She took it in her stride like it was natural. She picked her sleeping spot and obeyed the rules once she got told them. Or more like she got it demonstrated. The best bit was she learnt to ask to be let out of the tent instead of using the puppy pads.

Nope, we had a short period of difficulty (causing the panic button to be pressed, sorry). I think the dog and our son had to learn to live together and how to be around each other. Both me and my partner could adapt straight away.

I would expect that a second dog would only present difficulties through introducing it to our current dog. We're unlikely to do this until our puppy is at least a year old. We've got the other aspects of homing a dog sorted now and we have an idea of what the breed is like now.

The best bit is our dog loves to be active and has stamina. I know the advice is 5 minutes walking per month of life. If we only walked her 20 minutes she would never be settled. She's at least an hour of exercise at a time and has been so from almost the beginning. She seems to love running alongside us as we ride our bikes Just took to running next to our rear wheel in a perfectly safe way. We limit this to 10 to 20 minutes then she's into the dog box. Not because we're worried about the amount of exercise but because we're worried about her paws, the pads. Probably unfounded but gravel / mud/grit paths seem a bit too rough for her young age.

 

[Paul_B]

I don't know why he really wants the second dog but he said it was to give our current dog company. I suspect he overheard us talking about that before we got a dog. He's got that kind of memory and habit of repeating things he's heard months after hearing them.

He'd certainly fit in with us having another dog. Ultimately it would be the decision of the adults in the household. I'm the current sticking point along with the timing for a second. We want to get this one trained first. She comes back to us from the beginning. However it's not always straight away.

Whoever made the comment that if she's only biting me it's likely to mean she's bonding more to me was so right. She always comes when I call her. Usually she tries to jump into my arms. Not good when she's running at full speed and I'm crouching. She's got enough weight to knock me over believe it or not.

 

[bonzodog]

My patterdale is independent ,but on a good day she’s not to bad at following commands.Would not be without her tho,never failed to make me smile.