sorry dude i thought the video showed a piece of steel being worked by an individual smith by eye to a standard pattern. im not a smith so cant comment on the workings of the Gransfors Brucks factory how did it look to you when you visited?
Axes. Why?
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Frankly, yes, I do think that's expensive. TBH I'd never heard of GB axes untill I joined this forum and BCUSA. I've still never seen one in person. In all the years spent as a logger we always used whatever was available at a local hardware store or general store (usually Collins) I also had a Plumb axe and hatchet (very good axes) with the BSA logo on it (it was the official BSA axe and hatchet for decades) Plumbs were more expensive than ordinary axes but still nothing near 60 pounds. However, IF!!! you really like them (the GBs) though, I see no reason not to spend whatever YOU think they're worth and I won't tell you not to; but I will say that yes, that IS expensive.
In the end axemanship is more important than the tool itself but your enjoyment is the paramount consideration on our level here on the forum (hobby level)
Yep. Technically that is still "hand" forging although for a purist, it's stretching the semantics.But as you and rg598 already agreed casting and forging are different processes.
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IMO I'd say the axes are worth the money and alot of custom/hand made knives are simpley over priced. My thinking is the axe should cost more as it's harder to make, requires more skill to make, costs more to make and with a 20 year garuntee of the GB is pretty much just incredible. My experience is cheap axes are a bit crappy, but cheap knives can be superb so don't need to cost lots.
Now I understand we live in different worlds and that axes are commonly used tools for you guys and more of a specialist/hobby tool for us but their monetary value is often dismissed and underestimated. I can imagine axes in your neck of woods, good ones at that are far cheaper than axes over here (as with most things). If I were to buy a old plumb axe on ebay it would be about £30, a cheapo spoon knife is £23, a custom knife can range from £100-350+, a cold steel trail hawk £35 and a gb sfa is only £60! To me with those sorts of comparisons It's good value for money.
Some folk would argue with a sign post....
GB make some nice Axes using the process they use they cost what they cost and if you feel you want to use one or another axe it's up to you.
Jerven bags don't get taught as a matter of course when it comes to instruction for emergency shelter drills in snow. Folk teach techniques for making emergency shelters using snow or natural materials. as I suppose these are what is likey to be to hand. To use a Jerven Bag regardless of its properties or time saving attributes you need to have it with you. And say in a party of 4 you'd need a couple...
If I said 'Jerven Bag' to fellow instructors here I can say 99.9% would have no idea what one was. it's a bit like snow belay construction. What gets taught in the UK and here in NZ is different.. Same deal with rock belay construction. Some things that are common place in the UK are not done here in NZ.
GB make some nice Axes using the process they use they cost what they cost and if you feel you want to use one or another axe it's up to you.
Jerven bags don't get taught as a matter of course when it comes to instruction for emergency shelter drills in snow. Folk teach techniques for making emergency shelters using snow or natural materials. as I suppose these are what is likey to be to hand. To use a Jerven Bag regardless of its properties or time saving attributes you need to have it with you. And say in a party of 4 you'd need a couple...
If I said 'Jerven Bag' to fellow instructors here I can say 99.9% would have no idea what one was. it's a bit like snow belay construction. What gets taught in the UK and here in NZ is different.. Same deal with rock belay construction. Some things that are common place in the UK are not done here in NZ.
I'd have to agree with most of your post. As I said I've never even seen a GB axe in person so I'm hardly in a position to coment at all on what they're worth, merely that that price is expensive (being expensive doesn't mean that it's not worth it though)
I understand what you mean about prices being different as well; comparing your Plumb (you said 30 pounds on ebay) I got 2 here on ebay recently (one single bit and one double bit) for a total of $30 (about 20 pounds) That was without handles granted so I still have to get those when I refinish them.
Not sure about the cheap axes not being worth it or the 20 year warranty being all that important though; I still have some of my cheap axes over 50 years old. Craftsman hand tools (a Sears brand) all have a lifetime warranty, including their axes. (Which list online for $15.29 to $32.99)
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By all means a cheap axe isn't a bad choice, a £5 2lb hand axe is just fine for breaking up kindling for an open fire or camp fire but it won't cut wood. You can find kent pattern hatchets on ebay for not very much (£12-25) and they can be cleaned up and made very useable but are often in a very rough state to begin with.
I can appreciate a custom made knife looking lovely and performing well but I don't think I can get round to accepting their price as fair, I mean £100 (often £200 or more) for some shaped and sharpened stock steel?
A mora knife uses good metal, is razor sharp, will last for years and is well made and costs only £15! they are exceptional value for money and show the knife market that knives don't have to cost so damn much! In my opinion a fancy custom knife shouldn't really exceed £100, unless it's some sort of show piece or is hand forged.
Maybe I'm just a cheap skate with old fashioned perceptions of value or maybe it's just the world of 'designer bushcraft' that doesn't sit well with me.
(kind of detracted a little from the OP.. oopsy!)
Had a play with my new elwell billhook today and I had fun! I cleaned up a load of stakes, chopped a few 3-4" branches and had a go at finer work and while it is very good (more suited laying hedges obviously, with that single sided grind) I found my tomahawk to be easier and more effecient in use.
Will I take an axe next time I go camping? maybe, it's fun to use and even though I rarely split wood for fire (plenty on the floor round these parts) I will still find a use for it when cutting wood.
Will I take a saw? maybe, it's good for sectioning fire wood for the fire and leaving any lopped branches cleanly cut.
Will I take a billhook? no. it's too heavy and my other tools are better suited to my needs.
Interesting point about the Jerven bag there, John. But my thought is that they should know about the latest (although they've been around for what - 20 years?) and proven effective technology? Otherwise its like saying a club is the best tool to take with you, because they hadn't heard of a knife
If you are teaching survival techniques to people going into hazardous conditions, is it not incumbent upon you to provide the best advice, rather than relying on century-old traditions? Sure, as long as you make it clear that - if you go out inadequately prepared, then a snow-hole might just save your life - or just teach it for the fun of people learning old techniques - fair enough. But I'm betting that every winter survival course teaches about the best clothing available, importance of layering, use of wicking materials next to the skin, importance of removing layering to avoid sweat, taking care of feet, appropriate boot/liners and importance of having spares and so on. So why not include a piece of survival equipment which in its simplest form weighs only 600 grams and is arguably much more effective?
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Interesting point about the Jerven bag there, John. But my thought is that they should know about the latest (although they've been around for what - 20 years?) and proven effective technology? Otherwise its like saying a club is the best tool to take with you, because they hadn't heard of a knife
Have you ever used a Jerven bag say at 2000m on a snowy mountain on a 30 degree compacted snow slope in inclement weather or dug an emergency snow cave in the same conditions????
There is also a reasonable difference in say an Arctic camp craft course and instructing clients in basic and intermediate mountaineering techniques. Both environments are cold and have snow. After that the similarities begin to wane...
While Jerven bags might have been around for a while they're not that well known outside of Scandinavia and on the odd bushcraft forum IMHO.
Also as a responsible instructor here in NZ should I be recommending a bit of kit that folk in NZ cannot actually buy here in NZ?? I have a similar issue when I wear my Yeti Gaiters folk here think they are really good up to the point where they find that they cannot buy em in NZ in a similar vein I've read about Avalungs and think they're a neat idea but have never used one so don't enthuse to clients about them much....
Anyhow I think your point given the initial thrust of this thread was about axes is that why 'teach' or enthuse dogmatically about a given bit of kit or technique when things evolve and change or there is little need for a particular skill set in a given environment...
I think emergency snow shelters get taught because while a Jerven bag 'might' be a miracle bit of kit that works better etc... When the **** you actually need to have one to hand. If you oppo has the Jerven bag in his pack the weather is closing in and said oppo disappeared though a cornice and down a 1000 foot drop 20 minutes ago digging a simplistic, old fashioned, cold and uncomfortable snowshelter might suddenly seem appealing...
The adage in Alpine climbing that if you take bivvy kit you'll end up using it does have its foundations in a lot of sense in Alpine mountains. The less incumbered you are the faster you'll move. So adding a Jerven bag just in case is a bit of weight folk moving quickly do not want.
If **** and things take longer or the weather closes in and folk need to take shelter then if they know how to dig a emergency snow shelter they can.
Ive personally go nothing against technology and evolving techniques but I also do accept that Sometimes the best advice is based on the 'centuries old traditions'....
Fair enough, although I believe Jerven ship worldwide (and I'm sure you could get Yeti gaiters the same way!) NZ may be a long way away, but aircraft and ships still go there occasionally
Your point about your buddy disappearing off the cliff with "the" Jerven bag doesn't hold water - presumably he isn't carrying your crampons, rope or ice-axe axe either. The simplest bags weigh 600 grams - its a personal item you carry yourself. And would you care to hazard a guess at how many lightweight kit/"speed" alpine climbers have been caught in an unexpected storm for 24-48 hours on the mountain and frozen to death? A snow-hole won't raise the temp in there much - if any - above freezing point, not good particularly if you've generated sweat and burnt calories building your snow-hole. How many have been smothered in snow-holes that collapsed, or swept them off a ledge they were on?
Things move on. You no longer climb in thick furs, canvas rucksacks with metal frames, relying on hemp rope and heavy metal gear. Instead you use modern technical fabrics and high-tech alloys for most of your clothes and equipment (with the honourable exception of merino and silk base-layers!). I'd hazard a guess that exposure kills and maims as many climbers as does falling. To ignore a piece of kit that would massively reduce the risks of exposure over the critical first 24-48 hours seems strange to me, particularly from instructors whose advice the inexperienced avidly follow. As they say in court - ignorance is no excuse!
Fair enough, although I believe Jerven ship worldwide (and I'm sure you could get Yeti gaiters the same way!) NZ may be a long way away, but aircraft and ships still go there occasionally
Your point about your buddy disappearing off the cliff with "the" Jerven bag doesn't hold water - presumably he isn't carrying your crampons, rope or ice-axe axe either. The simplest bags weigh 600 grams - its a personal item you carry yourself. And would you care to hazard a guess at how many lightweight kit/"speed" alpine climbers have been caught in an unexpected storm for 24-48 hours on the mountain and frozen to death? A snow-hole won't raise the temp in there much - if any - above freezing point, not good particularly if you've generated sweat and burnt calories building your snow-hole. How many have been smothered in snow-holes that collapsed, or swept them off a ledge they were on?
Things move on. You no longer climb in thick furs, canvas rucksacks with metal frames, relying on hemp rope and heavy metal gear. Instead you use modern technical fabrics and high-tech alloys for most of your clothes and equipment (with the honourable exception of merino and silk base-layers!). I'd hazard a guess that exposure kills and maims as many climbers as does falling. To ignore a piece of kit that would massively reduce the risks of exposure over the critical first 24-48 hours seems strange to me, particularly from instructors whose advice the inexperienced avidly follow. As they say in court - ignorance is no excuse!
Take a chill pill...
Not advising folk to use a Jerven bag isn't remiss or poor form or bad instruction. It might seem that way to you in forum land but it's not...
That sounds just a mite defensive there, John! You actually haven't addressed any of the issues I raised, just basically said "I'm doing it right, regardless".
Lets take a scenario in the future. Little Cindy's dad comes up to you after his daughter has been trapped on the mountain for a couple of days. She's lucky - she survived, but her nose, a couple of fingers and a foot had to be amputated because of frostbite. Her dad says "John, wasn't there anything else she could have done, or taken with her, to keep herself as safe as possible in the circumstances?"
And you say.........what, exactly?
Here's a scenario for you Andy. Stop trolling or you will be moderated. You've completely changed the topic of this thread which tells me that you are just looking for an argument you think you can dominate. That's not what this forum is for. And if you want to argue with me on this issue, there will be a very predictable result.
I'm not particularly defensive about anything. I'm just looking at the reality of this situation as I see it... I'm chatting with a bloke I've never met on a internet forum thats increasingly detached from reality about a bit of kit I've never seen or handled thats not available in the country I live in.
I could choose to get sucked like a patsy into a long winded forum debate with a good bit of google fu thrown in. But ultimately what would that prove?
Surely people climbing mountains are responsible for their own gear? Most don't take things they perhaps should in order to move fast, it's a hobby and way of life for risk takers. Most people in the UK haven't even heard of Jervens bags, we just see people like Martin and Cliff lording it up with them at meets. Makes me jealous every time!
Time to get back on topic folks. If not, I'm locking this thread. If you want to talk about Jerven bags, start another thread.
I think in Greece open fires are a big no no ,
I was on a large island not to far from the mainland near athens a few years ago and we used an axe to chop fire wood for an open fire , Afterwards it was explained to us how much this had upset the local people . There really is a big anti fire thing over in Greece
That said we did not burn anything down
Quick edit: to add I think the idea of carrying an axe in Greece would horrify a lot of local people as they would be worried that there homes are about to get burnt down by your camp fire, so I can understand why someone from Greece may not feel to kindly toward campers,hikers or bushcrafters carrying axes
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It's not by eye. These are actual molds into which he is inserting the piece of metal. The reason why he has to go back and forth several times is because it is an open die drop forge, so the metal distorts on the sides when it is hit from the top, so he has to correct it by repeating the process several times. In a closed die drop forge, the die has side enclosures, which limits the distortion of the metal, reducing the steps. It still however takes several dies from a closed die drop forge to produce an axe head, and the piece of metal is moved form one die to the other by a person in a similar manner.
Whether or not each of us wants to call this "hand forging" is an individual issue of semantics. Technically however, the machine he is using is a drop forge, and is very different from an axe forged with a trip hammer or by hand as we saw in the first video.
Here is a video from the Wetterlings factory, showing a close up look at the same type of open die drop forge. At the end of the video you also see them make their handles, unlike GB which purchases theirs:
[video=youtube;qdwZnuX8nBU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdwZnuX8nBU[/video]
Here is a closed die drop forge (the one people usually have in mind when we talk about drop forging). I have no idea what they are making.
[video=youtube;C9YNU8pmLaU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9YNU8pmLaU[/video]
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