UK's largest stag shot dead on Exmoor

[British Red]

Its worth considering here that it is now illegal for many farmers to sell on the deer carcas. They need to control numbers of deer (especially the rising number of Roe in Southern England), but unless they invest far more in processing than the carcas will bring, they cannot sell the meat.

http://www.bds.org.uk/new_game_meat_laws.html

 

[Martyn]

They can give it away though, which is why Venison is usually either really expensive, or free.

 

[Martyn]

Oops, just seen this....

However, next year anyone who "supplies" game (which includes just giving it away) will be required to register as a food business with the local authority.

That's stupid. It'll force it underground or the meat will rot and waste.

 

[huffhuff]

Now now people. It is obvious there are going to be for and against arguments - but let us be civil.

With regards to this particular story, there are very little facts to base anything on. It seems in the main, to be based primarily on conjecture. The only real facts stated are that it is legal to shoot deer (although frowned upon in the rut, it is still legal). Regardless of whether this is for management or trophy - it seems that no laws have been broken in this instance. The skew on this is of that to insite an emotional response! Similarily, and on the reverese, this would cause emotional backlash if accompanied by a photo;

"According to new figures, deer have become so common they cause 74,000 road accidents each year - and kill up to a dozen drivers and passengers." (I just verified this via the DEFRA site. It linked me to www.deerinitiative.co.uk and then www.deercollisions.co.uk)

If you bother to google the story on other news sites, the story does change ever so slightly in the way it is 'spun' and therefore percieved.

I have obviously been mistaken. I wrongly assumed that people with an interest in the coutryside (ie. this forum), would have had a basic understanding and mutual respect for coutryside management.

Am I right to presume that those people with a clear anti-perspective have not caught fish, rabbits or pigeons under the guise of 'bushcraft'? That they are also vegan/vegetarian and eat/use no animal products what-so-ever? Surely these people are not so naive to assume their meat comes pre-packaged in polystyrene and shrink wrapped off the factory line and there is no killing or harming of pigs, cows, fish, chickens etc etc etc. Do these people eat meats with the impression that all the animals have died of natural causes and have not been bred to fill up their fridges, freezers and tummies!

The report doesn't say much. The deer could have been killed for management purposes. For genetic purposes. Maybe even for a trophy - but I am 100% sure the meat would have been sold and/or later consumed.

 

[British Red]

Oops, just seen this....



That's stupid. It'll force it underground or the meat will rot and waste.

Yep, its already happening. The legislation is fine in terms of deer parks, farmed game etc. but it doesn't work for farms / estates who allow wild deer but have to manage the numbers. The estate I used to live on was a bird shoot, arable farm, self sufficient in meat (pigs, chickens etc.) but had a real deer problem (tripling in numbers in three years).

They fell foul of

anyone who "supplies" game (which includes just giving it away) will be required to register as a food business with the local authority. Their game larder (and perhaps even vehicles) will also have to be registered and they must keep traceability records.

All the birds they shot wen't to a game butcher who was on site to process and receive on shoot days. However deer management was the odd older / weaker deer here and there. Only Roe and not worth the game butcher being on site "in case". Neither was it worthwhile the farm creating a game larder for a few small deer.

However the deer had to be responsibly managed to reduce crop damage and road incidents. The carcas of these kills, if taken by the game keeper on site (who was best placed to do it) could be neither sold nor given away.

That estate was beautifully and sympathetically managed on a "not for profit" basis - they did everything from use rare breed pigs in the woods to use tree extraction to produce wood pellets to heat the houses and work buildings. But they could not legally give me, a tenant, a deer shot on the land for ethical management purposes.

This is the stupidity of ill thought through laws, produced by people who don't actually have a clue about ethical countryside management. There is nothing ethical about burying healthy meat.

Red

 

[Bushwhacker]

Is that legislation just for deer or will that extend to things like rabbits and fish?

 

[Matt.S]

no one owns an animal, we live alongside them

Are you a member of PETA by any chance?

the unwritten law is that both human and animal benefit from each others presence, which is never the case, human take so much more than what they give.

Never heard that one before. Perhaps you could tell me wat contributions to 'nature' the fox makes? The cat? How should I go about performing such an assesment?

hunting for sport is the same as being a serial killer. you kill something because it makes your sick and twisted being feel good, no other reason.

Steady on old chap you'll do yourself an injury.

just because the animals body doesn't go to waste, the meat is sold to game dealers etc, it doesn't excuse the actual way in which the animal was killed.

So you're saying death or unconciousness (and subsequent dispatch) from a well placed supersonic bullet is an unacceptable way to kill an animal? Perhaps death from disease, starvation or due to injuries sustained in a RTC would be preferable?

Out of interest '1234', how old are you?

 

[robin wood]

Some strange takes on this. It's a while since I have had anything to do with deer management but back then any stags (or bucks since we mostly had fallow) were pretty well incidental to the management regime and only taken out either because they were an easy shot and there was a market or because they were clearly ill or in decline. Stags during the rut smell and taste pretty rank.

If you kill 50% of the stags in a herd it will not have much effect the overall population next year, it's the females that need culling to maintain the population. I was out deer watching 2 nights ago and the mature stags round here typically have 7-10 hinds each.

I personally am more comfortable with shooting a mature wild stag than I am with the way most of our meat products get to the table. Is there a moral difference between shooting and eating wild deer as against intensively rearing pigs? Personally I am an ethical meat eater, that is I only eat meat if I know where it has come from and am happy that it has lived a decent life. I can understand and respect people who decide on a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle too.

 

[Martyn]

If you think of yourself as the food animal, you get a better perspective I think. If you could choose between being a red deer of a gersey cow, which would it be? The red deer gets to live it's entire life, free as a bird. You can go where you want, eat where you want, drink where you want, mate with who you want as often as you want, fight who you want and if you are quiet and sneaky, maybe you'll get to die of old age, or if you are unlucky, a supersonic bullet will drop you on the spot and that will be all you know. The cow on the other hand, is genetically engineered to be food, lives it's entire life enclose in buildings or fenced in fields, often doesnt mate, or mates only under certain circumstances, you get to eat steroid enhanced food pellets and then without any doubt, marched into a shed where you are hung from you hind legs and have a bolt blasted into your brain.

If you were that food animal, and this was your life, which is the most sick and twisted?

 

[Hoodoo]

Some strange takes on this.

Well my view is that if indeed he was sleeping with his daughters, then perhaps the pedophile deserved what he got. Instead of being a serial killer, this could be a case of vigilante justice.

Just staying with the theme of anthropomorphism.

Also, it seems a shame to kill something that's having such a good life. Seems like the moral thing to do is administer death to those who suffer and have no control over it. Killing steers could be construed as mercy killing.

Jus sayin'... :borgsmile

 

[treelore]

Cats hunt for sport, are they sick and twisted? Sick and twisted are meaningless concepts to an Antelope and a Lion.

People might choose to not hunt or kill, that is their will and their choice, but it is in our nature to hunt and kill. You might not like it and it might not sit well in your learned view of the world, but it is natural human behaviour. It might be distasteful to you personally, but it is neither sick, nor twisted for a predator to kill.

spot on,

to produce cheese or milk it normal means a death of an animal...... but i don't see many people getting upset about it !

trophy hunting puts a hell of an amount of money back into conservation and other project,people should be more worried about poaching of deer done by people who do not know what they are doing, just so they can earn a quick buck.

 

[marcelxl]

I personally am more comfortable with shooting a mature wild stag than I am with the way most of our meat products get to the table. Is there a moral difference between shooting and eating wild deer as against intensively rearing pigs? Personally I am an ethical meat eater, that is I only eat meat if I know where it has come from and am happy that it has lived a decent life. I can understand and respect people who decide on a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle too.

Exactly my thoughts on my protein intake........... Growing up in a hunting home, I do have the train of thought that any wild meat has lived far better and has been dispatched in a far more humane manner than livestock that has been turned into those lovely shrink wrapped parcels in Tescos. We NEVER buy meat from supermarkets now, prefering to use the butcher who can happily tell us where it originates. I cannot even look at lorries full of livestock, but harvesting wild meat myself, no problem.
But yet again but this time a fresh outlet, I have found myself justifying my belief and its starting to get tired.............. Some people hunt, some people do not, some eat meat, others do not leave it there. There are sometimes things that you cannot change.
Typical media hysteria about something that is yet to be proven, right?
If it is, why is this headline news?

Opinion only, as ever!

ATB

Marc

 

[_mark_]

what Robin Wood said!!

 

[johnnytheboy]

Trophy hunting is a bit like the ridiculously expensive driven bird days; I can't fathom the reason why some people would do it but it has enormous, real, direct benefits to the conservation of the countryside and discourages development of wild areas.

Dont see whats ridic about a driven bird day? we do them ourselves on our shoot, we look after the wood we shoot in, the day out is excellent, not only do we do our shoot but there is allot of guns there that have allot of outdoor experiance and it gives me the chance to learn new skills, plus everybird i shoot goes home with me and gets eaten by me?

 

[Matt.S]

Dont see whats ridic about a driven bird day? we do them ourselves on our shoot, we look after the wood we shoot in, the day out is excellent, not only do we do our shoot but there is allot of guns there that have allot of outdoor experiance and it gives me the chance to learn new skills, plus everybird i shoot goes home with me and gets eaten by me?

I support driven bird shoots for any number of reasons, many of which you mentioned. I wrote a letter to my local paper defending them last month. Doesn't mean I want to spend £10,000 per Gun like one recent local shoot.

 

[Ph34r]

I do think that deer should be protected during the rut. I spend all my free time scouring the landscape for stags, following tracks and then someone goes, and kills the creme de la creme for the sake of it. I think that hunting should be okay, as long as the animal is not wasted. Shame.

 

[C_Claycomb]

I am going to ask what might be a dumb question here, but here goes...
What is the objection to shooting a stag in the rut?

In the US the traditional hunting period for deer, elk and moose invariably encompasses the rut. Certainly, if you want to control numbers, you shoot females, and could do so at any time of year, but if you want a trophy (moral judgements aside) the rut seems to be the time to do so; the stags have their antlers out of velvet and are at the peak of condition. Later in the season they may be run down from all the activity, and earlier their antlers are still growing.

Okay, so I see some of the objections are to do with taking a large stag out of the gene pool in the midst of the rut. Why does it matter that it was in the rut? Surely if it is "wrong" to remove a stag from the gene pool the time of year does not matter. You could argue it is wrong to shoot a stag after the rut because it prevents him breeding the following year! Since when has there been a shortage of red deer such that their gene pool needs protection anyway?

Finally, from a morality point of view, what matter is it that the stag was large with magnificent antlers? Trophy hunters want large trophies with lots of antler, but why would someone against hunting care about that? Aren't the lives of all stags of equal worth, from the morality stand point?

There does seem to be something inherent inside people that attaches special significance to an especially large and "magnificent" animal over and above its pure utilitarian value, or its intrinsic value as a living creature.

 

[JonathanD]

I think you hit the nail on the head CC. It was just an indentifiable individual so gained more personality in the public eye compared to all the others which look the same to 99% of the population. It's like naming one of your chickens... bad move.

 

[British Red]

...there you have it Jon. Its not about logic (the protests) its about emotion. Far more cruelty happens on the average vegetable farm than happened to this stag...vermin are shot, poisoned, their young killed, nests destroyed etc. to maintain profitable veggie fields - and that's assuming its organic. Of course mono culture veg farming destroys the mixed pastures and bio diversity needed for healthy wildlife. Once you get into spraying...well millions of insects are killed. But of course they aren't cute and furry.

But Bambies daddy isn't hurt by the nasty hunters......

Can't abide people who anthropomorphise animals. Bet those same people slap at a mosquito or squash a wasp..

 

[naefearjustbeer]

It wouldnt of made the news if it said "man spotted squashing a wasp".

But Bambies daddy isn't hurt by the nasty hunters......