Axes. Why?

[bradleybuckman]

I've been to the UK, but haven't done any camping/bushcrafting there, so I can't really comment on the need to carry an axe there. Personally, I carry a 19" Wetterlings most of the year unless I'm going somewhere that I know I absolutely will not need it and I don't want the extra weight, but it is with me 90% of the time. After a few hard lessons, I learned that an axe is a great tool to have and has lots of applications. I also learned that a 19" Wetterlings isn't enough axe in the winter and that a good buck saw is also a good addition in cold weather. For me, I enjoy using an axe and developing my skills in it's use. Plus, it just saves so much time and energy and allows me to do a lot of things that I couldn't or wouldn't do with my knife.

I'm sure that many of you have already seen this video, but it's a pretty interesting display of knowledge and skill that this guy has with an axe.

[video]http://www.nfb.ca/film/survival_in_the_bush[/video]

 

[HillBill]

You think the price of a custom knife is unfair? Do you know what it takes to make a high quality knife? or the time involved? You'd be very surprised mate i can tell ya. Most knife makers would be lucky to earn minimum wage over the course of a year.

I can appreciate a custom made knife looking lovely and performing well but I don't think I can get round to accepting their price as fair, I mean £100 (often £200 or more) for some shaped and sharpened stock steel?

 

[mountainm]

You think the price of a custom knife is unfair? Do you know what it takes to make a high quality knife? or the time involved? You'd be very surprised mate i can tell ya. Most knife makers would be lucky to earn minimum wage over the course of a year.

having made my own knife I can +1 this. Let's say a custom knife is in the range of £100 - £400
Let's take the middle top end. £300
A knife blank is going to cost about £20
Handle materials, liner and brass - let's say another £20
Sheath - about £30 minumum
We're left with £230 at the most
Now, how long does it take to make?
let's guess (rather optimistically) at 10 - 15 hrs
So we're earning about £15 - £23's an hour.
OK but what about overheads, equipment, sanding belts, electricity, rent, insurance.

Let's redo the Maths at a knife of £100
100-20-20-30=£30's
That's £3's per hour before overheads.
.....

 

[British Red]

You think the price of a custom knife is unfair? Do you know what it takes to make a high quality knife? or the time involved? You'd be very surprised mate i can tell ya. Most knife makers would be lucky to earn minimum wage over the course of a year.

If I had the skill, I'd still reckon producing knives like HillBills would be a pretty poor return as an hourly rate. It saddens me that we think craftsmen should earn so little for so great a skill

 

[mountainm]

If I had the skill, I'd still reckon producing knives like HillBills would be a pretty poor return as an hourly rate. It saddens me that we think craftsmen should earn so little for so great a skill

I'm afraid that it's a symtpom of cheap labour in the far east, south america and eastern europe. We longer longer appreciate somethings worth.

 

[HillBill]

Your presuming there that there is enough work to keep a maker going all week. I know makers who are only managing to sell a knife or two per week. Also most makers dont sell knives for £300. About £150 - £200 average is more in line with most makers prices.

I've just done a business management course and had to work out cash flow and projected earnings and things like that. My projected earnings were just over 10k for the first year after business costs had been met, but before tax and NI. But that was just a educated guess at likely income. It could be less, or more depending on how many knives i sell. Thats my take home pay for the year. And we earn a lot?

Also this doesnt include all the time spent in correspondance with customers on evenings and weekends, in our own time that we dont get paid for.

having made my own knife I can +1 this. Let's say a custom knife is in the range of £100 - £400
Let's take the middle top end. £300
A knife blank is going to cost about £20
Handle materials, liner and brass - let's say another £20
Sheath - about £30 minumum
We're left with £230 at the most
Now, how long does it take to make?
let's guess (rather optimistically) at 10 - 15 hrs
So we're earning about £15 - £23's an hour.
OK but what about overheads, equipment, sanding belts, electricity, rent, insurance.
.....

 

[mountainm]

Your presuming there that there is enough work to keep a maker going all week. I know makers who are only managing to sell a knife or two per week. Also most makers dont sell knives for £300. About £150 - £200 average is more in line with most makers prices.

I've just done a business management course and had to work out cash flow and projected earnings and things like that. My projected earnings were just over 10k for the first year after business costs had been met. But that was just a educated guess at likely income. It could be less, or more depending on how many knives i sell. Thats my take home pay for the year. And we earn a lot?

Yup - I was purposely going for the top end to illustrate that even then the take home pay is not much and as you say that assumes you're constantly busy working on knife making. There's no down time for accounts, marketing etc.

The only way to earn more in your shoes is to get quicker and cut raw materials costs by buying in bulk. Bringing down the number of hours required would prove impossible after a certain point. And building up stock of raw materials is risky if business cannot be guaranteed as your costs are sunk up front.

Craftsmen of the UK, I salute you.

 

[Hoodoo]

You think the price of a custom knife is unfair? Do you know what it takes to make a high quality knife? or the time involved? You'd be very surprised mate i can tell ya. Most knife makers would be lucky to earn minimum wage over the course of a year.

So very true. I've seen a lot of really good knife makers over the years drop out of the business because they sold their knives too cheap, which drove up the demand, and pretty soon they were knee deep in orders that they could barely make any money on. I tip my hat to all knife and axe makers who can make a living at it. For some reason, it is typical for an axe maker who hand forges his axe to get much less than even some of the simplest bare bones stock removal knives. I never kick on the price of a handmade axe or knife. If you want it, buy it. If not, no one is twisting your arm. Fortunately though, I bought most of my Gransfors axes back when they were first showing up in the US and bought them for less than half what they sell for now. And I paid half as much for my Lee Reeves double bit than what you would pay on ebay for a similar Norlund. Of course, Lee's prices have gone up quite a bit since I bought mine but more power to him. He deserves his success imo. Now I'm content to pick up an axe head on ebay or at a flea market (boot sale?) now and again and fit a new handle to it. And I prefer a Sears Boy's axe to all my others. Well, I did pick up a Gransfors Kubben not long ago that has been super for shaping spoons.

 

[Chris the Cat]

I would not spend any time in the Northern Boreal woods , in winter time without an axe.
On the two BcUK arctic trips I have been on, the instructors axe was by far the most used tool by them.
( and mine by me!)

Chris.

 

[Andy BB]

I think in Greece open fires are a big no no ,
I was on a large island not to far from the mainland near athens a few years ago and we used an axe to chop fire wood for an open fire , Afterwards it was explained to us how much this had upset the local people . There really is a big anti fire thing over in Greece
That said we did not burn anything down

Quick edit: to add I think the idea of carrying an axe in Greece would horrify a lot of local people as they would be worried that there homes are about to get burnt down by your camp fire, so I can understand why someone from Greece may not feel to kindly toward campers,hikers or bushcrafters carrying axes

As to why they have a big dislike of fires in Greece......I was driving from Macedonia to Bulgaria via Greece a year or two ago, and huge swathes of the trees on the Greek hillsides had been burnt down. My Greek colleague explained to me that - if a fire "accidentally" burnt down the trees, the owners were able to build there - maybe not fully legal, but thats apparently what was happening. As a result, many - although not all of the fires - appeared to be deliberately started. It was really a shame to see.

 

[HillBill]

Its a tough market for sure.
I'm going to have to branch out into different aspects of knifemaking to make a success of it i think. Not sure in which direction to go yet though.

So very true. I've seen a lot of really good knife makers over the years drop out of the business because they sold their knives too cheap, which drove up the demand, and pretty soon they were knee deep in orders that they could barely make any money on. I tip my hat to all knife and axe makers who can make a living at it. For some reason, it is typical for an axe maker who hand forges his axe to get much less than even some of the simplest bare bones stock removal knives. I never kick on the price of a handmade axe or knife. If you want it, buy it. If not, no one is twisting your arm. Fortunately though, I bought most of my Gransfors axes back when they were first showing up in the US and bought them for less than half what they sell for now. And I paid half as much for my Lee Reeves double bit than what you would pay on ebay for a similar Norlund. Of course, Lee's prices have gone up quite a bit since I bought mine but more power to him. He deserves his success imo. Now I'm content to pick up an axe head on ebay or at a flea market (boot sale?) now and again and fit a new handle to it. And I prefer a Sears Boy's axe to all my others. Well, I did pick up a Gransfors Kubben not long ago that has been super for shaping spoons.

 

[cbr6fs]

Who takes an axe out walking?

Some folk may walk to their bushy spot with an axe in tow, others may go on multi-day hikes and carry one for firewood production or perhaps carving on an evening.

But walking?

It's a bit hot here today so my brain could well be frying, but haven't you answered your own question there?

Dear Mr cbr66rfs you do have an uncanny way of creating a liitle spice with your comments , and selectively highlight the retorts that you choose as part of your response , at the end of the day it does not matter what you take into the woods .

I don't know much about Greece as the best country to practice Bushcrafting , but at least it is warm enough most of the year to wear bikini and wellies ! just leave the axe at home if it's an issue ...

Hi Mr Ivan,

I try and keep my posts as clear as possible as i've found it easy for things to get misinterpreted on forums, as a result i tend to try and highlight what i feel are key words or phrases, they shouldn't be interpreted as shouting or retorts, but more as what i consider important.

I also try to keep emotion out of my posts as i'm a pretty logical and unemotional kinda guy, so i do understand that as a result my posts may come off as "dry".

To be honest i think "Bushcrafting" covers a multitude of sins, i do not carve, leatherwork, make knives etc so there is not much in the way of craft in my bushing sorties.
I do enjoy learning about the wild and plant life around me though while out walking and/or camping, so for that there are massive differences in terrain and wild life over here.
You can go from very dry almost desert type terrain in some areas in summer, through to snow and ice for 4 months of the year in others.

I'm also a Brit so do venture back to the UK a few times a year.

I think in Greece open fires are a big no no ,
I was on a large island not to far from the mainland near athens a few years ago and we used an axe to chop fire wood for an open fire , Afterwards it was explained to us how much this had upset the local people . There really is a big anti fire thing over in Greece
That said we did not burn anything down

Quick edit: to add I think the idea of carrying an axe in Greece would horrify a lot of local people as they would be worried that there homes are about to get burnt down by your camp fire, so I can understand why someone from Greece may not feel to kindly toward campers,hikers or bushcrafters carrying axes

Exactly right

To be honest though even when i'm out camping, hiking etc in the UK i still have not once thought to myself "i wish i had an axe now"

There have been some great posts on how people use their axes, speaking as someone that grew up on farms though if someone used an axe on my property there would be trouble.

I can understand that if you are setting up a temporary shelter on your own land, an axe would be useful for making a shelter, the same with fires.
I do think it's extremely ignorant and selfish when people stay the night on someone else's land, chop tress and have open fires without the landowners permission though.

Unfortunately i have had experience with this on our land in the UK and on friends land.


As i say we would all love a nice big open fire at the end of each day, but unless you have:
a/ Your own land
b/ The land owners permission
c/ Life threatening situation
I think using an axe to cut other peoples wood is very selfish in many cases*.

*Obviously areas like Sweden and Norway are different




Cheers
Mark

 

[HillBill]

Not at all, i was responding to the suggestion that we take our axes walking. Which we dont, walking is the means by which we get to where we are going, we need the axe when we get there. Not for the walk itself. If i was out on a day hike and not planning on needing an axe for anything then i wouldnt have it with me would i? I certainly wouldn't be taking it for a walk.

It's a bit hot here today so my brain could well be frying, but haven't you answered your own question there?

 

[Samon]

I must mention I do not mean to be rude or offend any knife maker. I have seen alot of incredible work on here and to be honest maybe it's my ignorance and lack of knowledge of how much work and time actually goes into making a fine knife. With the maths the other chap has put forward it does seem the prices are more fair than I had imagined, specially when you consider the fact Mora are mass producing good quality cheap knives and not doing it in their spare time or as a one man maker!

How much work goes in to making GB axe? (I'm guessing alot less than goes into a cegga? or other small time beautifully hand made axes..)

 

[HillBill]

I believe (though i could be wrong) that cegga makes his axes at work. He works for another swedish axe company(Hultafors is it?) very similar to GB, so i expect they are very similar in the way they are made.

A lot of folk don't realise just what goes into the making of a knife, or the things which must be included in the cost. Its hardly like we can churn out 10 a week every week and sell them all straight away. Be great if we could, but it doesnt work that way

I must mention I do not mean to be rude or offend any knife maker. I have seen alot of incredible work on here and to be honest maybe it's my ignorance and lack of knowledge of how much work and time actually goes into making a fine knife. With the maths the other chap has put forward it does seem the prices are more fair than I had imagined, specially when you consider the fact Mora are mass producing good quality cheap knives and not doing it in their spare time or as a one man maker!

How much work goes in to making GB axe? (I'm guessing alot less than goes into a cegga? or other small time beautifully hand made axes..)

 

[Ivan...]

Hi Mark , as you have honestly stated , we are all different as human beings , and i admire your candour , it is always going to provoke a reaction when you raise a subject/question on a public forum , whether it be the axe/tarp/knife etc etc . I love the fact we have discussions , on the various matters raised, and you are going to get loads of answers/comments some you may agree with and some not.

I don't profess to be an expert in anything! least of all Greece and its culture or approach to bushcrafting/wild camping, but just from a personal point of view , if i couldn't have a fire , i would be gutted , and the axe thing (original point of thread ) having been a tree surgeon and log merchant for many years , i have a certain affinity with the tool, and since discovering the whole camping thing , i have rekindled my love with the old fella , and as several have said , whether it be axe or sword , each to their own.

As long as you are happy ,comfortable and safe enjoying the outdoor experience , get on !!

Ivan...

 

[Harvestman]

I think that last point is a very good one. People carry the tools that they are comfortable with, and get use out of. For some people that is an axe, for others it isn't. Under most circumstances it is more about whether you are an 'axe person' than whether the situation needs an axe.

There's a lot of overlap between tools, too. You want to chop stuff up? Axe, machete, parang, leuku will all do a job. Pick the tool that suits what you do, and the way you do it. If that's an axe, great. If not, why worry if someone else prefers an axe?

 

[dwardo]

I carry an axe to my local haunt for a few different reasons.
Too lazy to saw up wood which is usually half wrotten but with an axe a "cutting bash" usually does it in seconds.
Works great as a hammer.
Much faster than a knife for making pegs/poles etc.
Way way faster for removing wood when making staves.

For most of the reasons above my billhook would be a much better choice but i have yet to finish a sheath for it. That and the billhook has a lot more edge a whole lot closer to my fleshy bits in comparison to my scandi forest axe.

 

[cbr6fs]

Not at all, i was responding to the suggestion that we take our axes walking. Which we dont, walking is the means by which we get to where we are going, we need the axe when we get there. Not for the walk itself. If i was out on a day hike and not planning on needing an axe for anything then i wouldnt have it with me would i? I certainly wouldn't be taking it for a walk.

I genuinely have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

No idea if your trying to be pedantic or your genuinely confused

I must mention I do not mean to be rude or offend any knife maker. I have seen alot of incredible work on here and to be honest maybe it's my ignorance and lack of knowledge of how much work and time actually goes into making a fine knife. With the maths the other chap has put forward it does seem the prices are more fair than I had imagined, specially when you consider the fact Mora are mass producing good quality cheap knives and not doing it in their spare time or as a one man maker!

How much work goes in to making GB axe? (I'm guessing alot less than goes into a cegga? or other small time beautifully hand made axes..)

As a recent convert to higher priced knives i can say with my hand on my heart that i use my better quality knives completely different to my Mora.
Like trying to explain how 1 car drives different to another it's difficult to describe, but once you've used a quality knife and have that feel of reassurance from it, it is difficult to trust cheaper knives again.

Sure my Mora would probably do 98% of the work my better quality knives do, but that 2% makes a huge difference to me.

Best description i can think of this.
I could drive to the UK (from here in Greece) in our Smart car, i'm fairly confident it would get us there and back.
But the same journey in say my MX5 would be more enjoyable and i am more confident in it's reliability.


I'm not saying a knife replaces an axe, an axe is a great tool for the job it does.

Hi Mark , as you have honestly stated , we are all different as human beings , and i admire your candour , it is always going to provoke a reaction when you raise a subject/question on a public forum , whether it be the axe/tarp/knife etc etc . I love the fact we have discussions , on the various matters raised, and you are going to get loads of answers/comments some you may agree with and some not.

I don't profess to be an expert in anything! least of all Greece and its culture or approach to bushcrafting/wild camping, but just from a personal point of view , if i couldn't have a fire , i would be gutted , and the axe thing (original point of thread ) having been a tree surgeon and log merchant for many years , i have a certain affinity with the tool, and since discovering the whole camping thing , i have rekindled my love with the old fella , and as several have said , whether it be axe or sword , each to their own.

As long as you are happy ,comfortable and safe enjoying the outdoor experience , get on !!

Ivan...

Odd thing is, hand on my heart i have absolutely no intention of provoking a reaction, i try to be as honest as i can as i strongly feel that if i'm going to the trouble and time to type an opinion it should have been well thought and thrashed out beforehand.

As i've said before i think we are extremely fortunate here in that we have such varied amount of experiences and activities we do.
I have absolutely no intention of living off foraged food, but i still eagerly read up on every thread i see on the subject, likewise leatherwork, metalwork, etc etc etc.

With axes i do admit that having come across many bad experiences with injuries (other people) and folks camping on our land, chopping our wood, burning it on our land and leaving scars, my view is jaded some what.

Even then though from some fantastic and informative posts on the thread i can see that some folks do find them useful, fair enough.

I still do not agree with anyone cutting and burning wood on other peoples land though without the express permission of the land owners/keepers.
Sure you could cut my wood with a saw or a knife, but being a bloke i know that if we take a tool like an axe out with us we will sure as hell use it.

Again great if it's your plot or you have permission, but how many folks here have that?

*Mod's
I realise that this is not an answer to the op's question, but i do feel it is still very much on topic.



Cheers
Mark

 

[santaman2000]

...As i say we would all love a nice big open fire at the end of each day, but unless you have:
a/ Your own land
b/ The land owners permission
c/ Life threatening situation
I think using an axe to cut other peoples wood is very selfish in many cases*.

*Obviously areas like Sweden and Norway are different

Cheers
Mark

Different here as well:

To to south of me the Air Force has approximately 900,000 acres with about 1/2 of it open to public recreation. Among other thinggs, you can purchace a firewood cutting permit. Each permit is good for 1/4 cord (about a pick-up load) for $10 each and each familly can purchase up to 10 permits per year. Also available are Christmas tree cutting permits for $5. To the west is a State Forest with a somewhat larger area, ALL of which is open to public recreation and logging.

To the north is a National Forest of roughly the same size as the State Forest which is also open to public recreation and logging.

These three areas range in distance (from me) from about a 7 minute drive (to the Air Force reservation) up to a 20 minute drive (for the State Forest) to a 40 minute drive (for the National Forest)