Why guns should not be carried in the wilderness!!

[santaman2000]

With a sharp blow to the head. I didnt nail it to a board first nor did I set about gutting it whilst it was alive.

Admirable but that was trout. Bludgeoning a catfish has litte effect unless you hit it hard enough to damage the head. At least little IMMEDIATE effect, meaning that would be cruel in itself. In which case there would be no way to skin it. As best I remember, trout are scaled rather than skinned so that's not an issue.

Also how do you manage spear fishing? The common method for taking Bullfrogs and Flounder. How do you rate bowfishing? A common method for taking non-game fish species.

 

[santaman2000]

Dont get my posts wrong guys I also believe a creature should be dispatched as quickly and painlessly as possible.

I think we all agree on that. Even me. Where we seem to disagree (not you personally but the group in general) is exactly how much is "possible." Nailing a snakes head down to skin it is the only practical way to skin it, as with catfish. I argued that a nail through the head probably does kill near instantaneous but if it doesnt then death is still going to be reasonably quick. This is the standard method for catfish and apparently also for rattlers.

You mentioned "species prejudice" and you're quite right. We all have it to some degree. Even the most pacifist people have no qualms taking anti-biotics to kill thousands of bacteria. After all, how can a one celled creature suffer? with only a single cell, it has no nervous system. Most of us draw the line higher on the scale. We poison bugs. The most common insecticide is a weakened type of nerve gas that causes intense suffering if that scale were compared to what a proportionate dose would do to us. Mice and rats are trapped using (among other methods) sticky paper. In theory they stick their feet and we kill them quickly when we check the trap. In reallity they catch their faces and slowly suffocate. How many people are overly concerned about either? I don't like it but I use both methods without overly moralizing about it. I suspect most of you do as well. It is quite different from how we would treat our pets. The point being we all have some threshold of "species prejudice." Mine is with rattlers, fish and edible species of frogs.

 

[santaman2000]

I did and I have no issue with hunting for food or the control of pest species. BP was also a racist and a homophobe by todays standards.

I think "today's standards" versus those of previous eras is as much a part of the thread premise as is the difference in national cultures.

 

[rik_uk3]

I see no problem with the shooting of the snake, it is a pest species where it was shot. It may have been trying to get away, but how far would it go and how long before it came back.

I do exactly the same with pests and vermin here, the rabbits on a freinds farm dont get a reprive because they are hopping away from me. Neither do the rats in my chicken run. I dont see the snake as any different, just a lot more dangerouse for my kids and dog to be playing around.

Very good reply.

Don't tell me every creature members shoot die straight away, they don't, we poison rats and they die from internal bleeding or suffer pain when caught in a spring trap. Members here kill (murder really) rabbits not because of a craving for bunny meat but simply because they can, they want to try out a new gun, use their shiney knife to practise skining.

I don't see what all the fuss is about here.

 

[C_Claycomb]

What a thread!

While opinions have been expressed a little more forcefully than is the norm on here, I reckon that both points of view have given as good as they have got. Lets try not to get too worked up. There have been quite a lot of good posts, and some good info in them.

I am not going to add any opinion on shooting the snake. Since I have grown up on a steady diet of BBC wildlife documentaries and Attenborough pleas about vanishing wildlife, not to mention never needing to worry about animal dangers in the British countryside, my view would be biased.

I do know that dispatching Channel Catfish can be really difficult. When my grandad and I caught a mess of them we tried to kill them with a blow to the head, the way that I had done for trout and bass. Well, that didn't work. We upgraded from a priest to a ballpein hammer and even fish as small as 2lb seemed pretty frisky despite having an inch and a half round circular depresion in the middle of their heads. We also needed pliers and two people to get the skin off! If you haven't tried cleaning catfish, I am not sure whether you should be too critical of how folk 4000 miles away do it, it's harder than one would think.

 

[mayobushcraft]

Fried catfish is yummie.

 

[santaman2000]

What a thread!

While opinions have been expressed a little more forcefully than is the norm on here, I reckon that both points of view have given as good as they have got. Lets try not to get too worked up. There have been quite a lot of good posts, and some good info in them.

I am not going to add any opinion on shooting the snake. Since I have grown up on a steady diet of BBC wildlife documentaries and Attenborough pleas about vanishing wildlife, not to mention never needing to worry about animal dangers in the British countryside, my view would be biased.

I do know that dispatching Channel Catfish can be really difficult. When my grandad and I caught a mess of them we tried to kill them with a blow to the head, the way that I had done for trout and bass. Well, that didn't work. We upgraded from a priest to a ballpein hammer and even fish as small as 2lb seemed pretty frisky despite having an inch and a half round circular depresion in the middle of their heads. We also needed pliers and two people to get the skin off! If you haven't tried cleaning catfish, I am not sure whether you should be too critical of how folk 4000 miles away do it, it's harder than one would think.

I had forgotten about the pliers. They were worth the work though don't you think?

 

[santaman2000]

Fried catfish is yummie.

+1 Especially with chips and hushpuppies!

 

[mayobushcraft]

Hushpuppies and turnup greens and cornbread. Man I miss Florida.

 

[santaman2000]

Hushpuppies and turnup greens and cornbread. Man I miss Florida.

Up here in the panhandle they add cheese grits.

 

[Pict]

For the record most American outdoors enthusiasts who are gun owners/carriers have as much disdain for people who unnecessarily shoot wildlife as those who have expressed that opinion here. Back in Pennsylvania it is very common to run into rattlers and copperheads. Of the two would rather deal with rattlers because they rattle and let you rethink your next move. One summer a few years back I ran into a rattler every time I went out for an over-nighter. Each time I was armed as per "totally normal" in that area of the world, and none of the snakes or humans was harmed. In fact the only times I can even recall someone shooting a venomous snake it was in an area where kids were at risk. In such locations I am 100% in favor of killing venomous snakes as I would be of landmine removal. Snakes often do not give you much leeway in terms of catch/release but even there people do it when they can. We were once up in a State Gamelands area and a game commission officer stopped to tell us he had just released a large rattler that had been caught and removed from the county fairgrounds. He gave us the location and thought it best to tell us seeing as we were both armed and headed that way.

Here in Brazil we have snakes that will make you dead right now. It is something you think about every step you take in many areas. It does define the culture a bit as people have lost livestock, pets, even family to snakebite tend to kill them on sight. In and around the fazenda I can't blame them a bit. Out in the bush once a snake is located we give it a wide berth. Contrary to the opinion of many snakes don't always move off at the first hint of human approach, some of them here will very much stand their ground and there seems to be a correlation between how venomous they are and how resistant they are to moving away.

From the Armed forces list of venomous creatures by country the US has 35, Brazil 76, and the UK one, so count your blessings. Mac

 

[santaman2000]

For the record most American outdoors enthusiasts who are gun owners/carriers have as much disdain for people who unnecessarily shoot wildlife as those who have expressed that opinion here. Back in Pennsylvania it is very common to run into rattlers and copperheads. Of the two would rather deal with rattlers because they rattle and let you rethink your next move. One summer a few years back I ran into a rattler every time I went out for an over-nighter. Each time I was armed as per "totally normal" in that area of the world, and none of the snakes or humans was harmed. In fact the only times I can even recall someone shooting a venomous snake it was in an area where kids were at risk. In such locations I am 100% in favor of killing venomous snakes as I would be of landmine removal. Snakes often do not give you much leeway in terms of catch/release but even there people do it when they can. We were once up in a State Gamelands area and a game commission officer stopped to tell us he had just released a large rattler that had been caught and removed from the county fairgrounds. He gave us the location and thought it best to tell us seeing as we were both armed and headed that way.

Here in Brazil we have snakes that will make you dead right now. It is something you think about every step you take in many areas. It does define the culture a bit as people have lost livestock, pets, even family to snakebite tend to kill them on sight. In and around the fazenda I can't blame them a bit. Out in the bush once a snake is located we give it a wide berth. Contrary to the opinion of many snakes don't always move off at the first hint of human approach, some of them here will very much stand their ground and there seems to be a correlation between how venomous they are and how resistant they are to moving away.

From the Armed forces list of venomous creatures by country the US has 35, Brazil 76, and the UK one, so count your blessings. Mac

I'll probably spell this wrong but I'm gonna try anyway. Tell me if I'm right in thinking that the South American "Fuer de Lance" is closely related to the American Moccasin. It looks as though they are about the same size, temperment and venom type with the main difference being that of habitat choice; i.e. the Moccasin is a ground/water snake preferring low, marshy areas while I believe the Feur de Lance is more inclined to be arboreal or semi-arboreal and live among banana clusters. How far am I wrong?

My Dad told of when he lived and worked (outdoors) in Central America in the construction industry. This was in the period roughly from the end of WWII until the mid 1950s. He was mainly in Panama and Venezuela. His accounts of the locals, particularly the Indians, was that while they hunted most species of snake they usually went out of their way to completely avoid any contact with the Bushmaster. Not out of a particular respect as we think of it but rather out of an abject fear of the Bushmaster. He remembered tails told by the locals that when someone did take a shot at one with a firearm it would always be headshot because the snake was fast enough and agressive enough that it would strike at the incoming bullet. I'm sure that was only a local legend but it illustrates their fear. That was still the attitude when I visited Panama in 1973 for a cousin's wedding.

Also for the record most of the people I've grown up with almost never shot snakes. They were usually killed with a hoe or stick although in New England they sometimes use explosives (legally permitted explosives) to destroy a rattler den or more often burn it out. Most of the people I grew up with were also "outdoorsmen" rather than "Outdoor Enthusiasts." The difference being an "enthusiast" is a hobbyest while we lived and worked in the outdoors. Gun ownership was as much a given as was pants ownership. Still is. These are still the people I most associate with. As you said, it makes a quite different culture.

Problem bears are relocated here in Florida because they are on the endangered list. As I stated in an earlier post, alligators, snakes and all other species not on the endangered list are simply killed when they become a problem. Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission hires proffessional trappers to kill the alligators. The gator hide and meat (being quite valueable) is his pay. We also had our first season open to the general public this year for hunting exotic, invasive species of constrictors. Public drawings for an alligator permit have been going on since before I got here 20 years ago.

Most gun "owners" aren't rural or "outdoor" anything. Rather they are urban dwellers with concealed weapons permits (although many like me carry with our badge instead) and never get into the countryside to even see a snake.

 

[Pict]

The bushmaster likes lowland tropical forest. We have a camp set up in perfect habitat for them and we have had one in that camp. I wasn't there at the time but have camped there before and since. The Bushmaster has a real attitude problem and will be more inclined to fight than flight. In this case the guys there tried to drive it away and that only made it more determined. Finally it left of its own accord.

Often I will cut myself a long thin stick, especially when I'm with my son, to check the trail ahead for snakes. I taught him to do the same. You just don't go flying down a trail in the jungle that is flanked by heavy foliage. I'd much rather "touch them with a ten foot pole". Mac

 

[GimpyOlderndirt]

Why guns should not be carried in the wilderness...
This thread resembles pishtwaddle!

 

[santaman2000]

The bushmaster likes lowland tropical forest. We have a camp set up in perfect habitat for them and we have had one in that camp. I wasn't there at the time but have camped there before and since. The Bushmaster has a real attitude problem and will be more inclined to fight than flight. In this case the guys there tried to drive it away and that only made it more determined. Finally it left of its own accord.

Often I will cut myself a long thin stick, especially when I'm with my son, to check the trail ahead for snakes. I taught him to do the same. You just don't go flying down a trail in the jungle that is flanked by heavy foliage. I'd much rather "touch them with a ten foot pole". Mac

What about the Feur de Lance? I know I'm spelling that wrong but it's the best I can do. How does it compare with the American Moccasin?

 

[ex member coconino]

http://www.laboiteverte.fr/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/vintage-ancien-***-04.jpg
Would anyone approve of this today?

 

[Bothwell_Craig]

Well bears are still hunted under Government licence in Norway

 

[santaman2000]

Bears are still hunted here too. Not here in Florida but in quite a few states on an state by state basis. Also cougars, alligators, bobcats, wolves, etc; all also on a state by state basis.

 

[GordonM]

For those that may be interested, I invite you to our game department's website with information on black bears in Virginia. http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/bear/

For some of us, black bear is an outstanding victual. I prefer bear over venison for a fine meal. Here is a picture of some outdoor cooked victuals.

Left to right. Black Bear Meatloaf, Cornbread and Peach Cobbler for dessert.

Gordy

 

[sasquatch]

http://www.laboiteverte.fr/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/vintage-ancien-***-04.jpg
Would anyone approve of this today?

That's a great bergen, shame it didn't have a waist strap with a bergbuckle...saying that the top opening is a bit small.

The three course meal looks great Gordy and it's good to see the end product getting used in a beneficial way. Mmm, cornbread! Butter and corn syrup on it for me please!