Which laptop?
- Thread starter tommy the cat
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Vladimir Putin does not agree with your position and believe me, you do not want to be on his s**t list.
Vladimir Putin does not agree with your position and believe me, you do not want to be on his s**t list.
Nor does the Gendarmerie Nationale, or some 50% of the Worlds web servers.
Too silly.
I agree with Tadpole. I flirted with Linux in the early days and gave up on the basis you need a computer degree to make it work. If you just want a lappy the internet, photos and videos you're surely better off with a windows machine which will work from day one without having to install drivers, plug ins etc.
60% actually
Which is great if you want to run a web server, but the OP doesn’t, he wants a laptop, and Linux and all its variants hold less than 4.8% of the desktop/laptop market, why? Because if you’re in charge of a server farm it’s likely you’ve a programming/computing based degree, however if you want to have fun on the net, watch a DVD or two, surf chat via im or Skype or even heaven forefend buy off of eBay, then the last thing you need to worry about is flaky OS or writing or editing code just so you can install a wireless card or webcam.
MLP
PC Advisor did a group test of sub - £600 laptops recently: http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsId=3214583&pn=2
It may help point you in certain directions.
Linux as a desktop operating system is for those who already know how to use it or for those with the time, determination and inclination to want to learn how to use it properly. If you know Windows then stick with it, because at least you will be working with the majority OS that you will be most likely to find in the work place or within academia, your skills can (mostly) transpose from version to version and you will be operating from within your comfort zone as opposed to meandering aimlessly in the fog of despair that so many Linux newcomers find themselves lost in. Your laptop will ship with a perfectly good operating system so what's the point of changing it unless you have seriously good reason to do so ?
Curiosity is perhaps the worst rationale behind investing (read wasting) large amounts of time to learn how to use an alternate operating system.
Before I get flamed I should say that I use Linux desktops and especially servers daily and have done for years, but I also use Windows and Apple computers as well. I only really use my Linux laptop for serious network debugging when I'm going into an unknown environment. If I know in advance that I will be dealing with an all-Windows network I take a Windows laptop with some nifty utilities and diagnostics installed with me instead. Right tool, right job...
If you aren't too bothered about battery life or portability then the Toshiba machines are about as good as anything else you might find in your price bracket. They tend to have a very nice keyboard for long periods of typing while other similarly priced machines often have cheaper 'bouncy' keys.
Acer also offer excellent value for money and both Acer and Tosh can be covered with an after-market top up warranty that gives you an additional two years cover on top of your first year's guarantee. Usually this works out at well under £100 and you don't have to buy it at the same time as the laptop, so in month 11 you can fork out, register the new warranty cover and off you go for the next couple of years
Factor in the price of a bag if you decide you do want to travel with it at any time (often you will find laptop and bag bundles on ebuyer.com) and do yourdself a huge favour and buy a USB wireless optical mouse. How anyone can work efficiently with a track pad is beyond me...
Finally the firewall on Windows 7 is pretty good. Others who might disagree clearly haven't bothered to spend the time to learn how to use it properly. Rather than invest in software to replace it you should run some searches on how to properly configure it and/or download the excellent and free Windows 7 Firewall Control applet which quickly and easily allows you to set application preferences as they occur for both inbound and outbound alerts with either temporary rules or permanent exceptions. Anyone running Windows 7 who hasn't bought into an alternate software firewall should be using the Windows 7 Firewall Control applet http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/windows-7-firewall-control/
You should also factor in the price of some good anti virus software. Most laptops ship with one of the mainstream anti virus or combined anti virus/firewall security suites installed as a 30 or 60 day trial. For simplicity's sake you may choose to just continue with that and buy an ongoing subscription as required. If you choose to go with a different product/vendor then use a dedicated removal tool to uninstall McAfee or Norton products (the two most likely to be installed on a new laptop) since the built-in installer often leaves a tangled mess behind when you attempt to remove it/them.
Details of the McAfee Removal Tool: http://www.pchell.com/virus/uninstallmcafee.shtml
Details of the Symantec Norton product removal tool: http://us.norton.com/support/kb/web_view.jsp?wv_type=public_web&docurl=20080710133834EN&ln=en_US
Eset NOD32 http://www.eset.com/ makes all other anti virus software look like a box of crayons, but keep in mind that all anti virus products are, by definition, several steps behind.
Have a look for OpenOffice if you want free programs that can open and edit standard Microsoft Office document file formats, and look for Paint.Net if you want a free lightweight image editor based on Microsoft Paint that can also handle layers and other fancy-pants stuff.
Office 2003 can run fine on Windows 7 but you might need to use a dedicated removal tool to get rid of the trial of Office 2007/2010 that will be installed on your new laptop, or you can obviously opt to buy a license for it and leave it installed.
Finally, if you come in well under budget get some blank DVD-R disks or, if you manage to come in well under budget, buy a USB portable hard drive. Use either or both to store a regular backup routine and stick to it. The Windows 7 backup tools are pretty good overall so use them to create system recovery and data backups. The number of times I've had to do data recovery on failed hard drives for people who were just about to back their systems up...
Let us know how you get along.
It may help point you in certain directions.
Linux as a desktop operating system is for those who already know how to use it or for those with the time, determination and inclination to want to learn how to use it properly. If you know Windows then stick with it, because at least you will be working with the majority OS that you will be most likely to find in the work place or within academia, your skills can (mostly) transpose from version to version and you will be operating from within your comfort zone as opposed to meandering aimlessly in the fog of despair that so many Linux newcomers find themselves lost in. Your laptop will ship with a perfectly good operating system so what's the point of changing it unless you have seriously good reason to do so ?
Curiosity is perhaps the worst rationale behind investing (read wasting) large amounts of time to learn how to use an alternate operating system.
Before I get flamed I should say that I use Linux desktops and especially servers daily and have done for years, but I also use Windows and Apple computers as well. I only really use my Linux laptop for serious network debugging when I'm going into an unknown environment. If I know in advance that I will be dealing with an all-Windows network I take a Windows laptop with some nifty utilities and diagnostics installed with me instead. Right tool, right job...
If you aren't too bothered about battery life or portability then the Toshiba machines are about as good as anything else you might find in your price bracket. They tend to have a very nice keyboard for long periods of typing while other similarly priced machines often have cheaper 'bouncy' keys.
Acer also offer excellent value for money and both Acer and Tosh can be covered with an after-market top up warranty that gives you an additional two years cover on top of your first year's guarantee. Usually this works out at well under £100 and you don't have to buy it at the same time as the laptop, so in month 11 you can fork out, register the new warranty cover and off you go for the next couple of years
Factor in the price of a bag if you decide you do want to travel with it at any time (often you will find laptop and bag bundles on ebuyer.com) and do yourdself a huge favour and buy a USB wireless optical mouse. How anyone can work efficiently with a track pad is beyond me...
Finally the firewall on Windows 7 is pretty good. Others who might disagree clearly haven't bothered to spend the time to learn how to use it properly. Rather than invest in software to replace it you should run some searches on how to properly configure it and/or download the excellent and free Windows 7 Firewall Control applet which quickly and easily allows you to set application preferences as they occur for both inbound and outbound alerts with either temporary rules or permanent exceptions. Anyone running Windows 7 who hasn't bought into an alternate software firewall should be using the Windows 7 Firewall Control applet http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/windows-7-firewall-control/
You should also factor in the price of some good anti virus software. Most laptops ship with one of the mainstream anti virus or combined anti virus/firewall security suites installed as a 30 or 60 day trial. For simplicity's sake you may choose to just continue with that and buy an ongoing subscription as required. If you choose to go with a different product/vendor then use a dedicated removal tool to uninstall McAfee or Norton products (the two most likely to be installed on a new laptop) since the built-in installer often leaves a tangled mess behind when you attempt to remove it/them.
Details of the McAfee Removal Tool: http://www.pchell.com/virus/uninstallmcafee.shtml
Details of the Symantec Norton product removal tool: http://us.norton.com/support/kb/web_view.jsp?wv_type=public_web&docurl=20080710133834EN&ln=en_US
Eset NOD32 http://www.eset.com/ makes all other anti virus software look like a box of crayons, but keep in mind that all anti virus products are, by definition, several steps behind.
Have a look for OpenOffice if you want free programs that can open and edit standard Microsoft Office document file formats, and look for Paint.Net if you want a free lightweight image editor based on Microsoft Paint that can also handle layers and other fancy-pants stuff.
Office 2003 can run fine on Windows 7 but you might need to use a dedicated removal tool to get rid of the trial of Office 2007/2010 that will be installed on your new laptop, or you can obviously opt to buy a license for it and leave it installed.
Finally, if you come in well under budget get some blank DVD-R disks or, if you manage to come in well under budget, buy a USB portable hard drive. Use either or both to store a regular backup routine and stick to it. The Windows 7 backup tools are pretty good overall so use them to create system recovery and data backups. The number of times I've had to do data recovery on failed hard drives for people who were just about to back their systems up...
Let us know how you get along.
The most recent Distributions of Linux these days, are on a par with anything Windows has to offer. Yes, it is sometimes hard to grasp, That's why most versions like Ubuntu, Mint Knoppix, Suse, etc, Can all be installed through Windows ,the same as any other piece of software or run from a " live cd/dvd" or as a complete installation.
I think most people's problem with it, is that its "Not Windows" You don't need to be a programmer to use it or install software on it. It does everthing windows can do.
T.b.h i find it less buggy than windows. But each to their own.
I think most people's problem with it, is that its "Not Windows" You don't need to be a programmer to use it or install software on it. It does everthing windows can do.
T.b.h i find it less buggy than windows. But each to their own.
Isn't that the whole point ?
Without wanting to hijack the thread (or to sound as though I'm ranting), if you're used to Windows and you work on Windows machines at work and/or in an academic institution and if you want to bet on your skills being useful in the majority market share operating system/office suite for the next decade or so then you have only one serious option.
Operating system stability comes (largely) down to hardware device drivers. Many modern Linux distributions won't just drop into a computer without a bit of jiggery pokery and laptops are the one area where there is the most variation of hardware, particularly with wireless, LAN, sound and video devices, not to mention the mainboards themselves.
Example - my Samsung N210 is a decent netbook and about 8 months old now. It came with Windows 7 which is about as stable a desktop operating system as I have ever seen, but I needed some additional tools for systems diagnostics that the starter edition of Windows 7 just couldn't handle, so I set up dual boot with Ubuntu. When I loaded the Netbook edition of Ubuntu onto it the WiFi was dead. Some searching and poking about, a few downloads, make / install and so on and things got up and running and have remained so. This isn't exactly my first time to dance with Linux but, and this is the important part, unless you know exactly what you are going to be dealing with prior to installation you will need a working system to look this information up, to download and required files on, and so on and so forth.
Linux can be a drop in desktop operating system in the right environment. For home users who want to tinker with it, it is fine, and that goes for casual users who only browse the web, email and perhaps keep a daily journal or listen to music, or for web and/or application programming in any one of a number of languages and, crucially, for businesses who operate through browser based applications or whose staff literally fill in the blanks in pre-formatted documents.
You can't take something that isn't Windows and that doesn't natively support the market dominant office suite and expect folks to be as productive on it. Period. And that is where is continues to fail, and that is why so much time and effort is being poured into virtualising Windows within Linux or porting Windows applications across to Linux via WINE or Crossover etc.
Scenario 1:
I want a graphics designer and perhaps an artworker to do a 6 month term with me for some corporate re-branding projects. I want them to be involved from conceptualising through to finished output, and I want to put them in front of a machine that they can be productive on as soon as they log on.
I don't care how good GIMP or Scribus is in the right hands - the people I will be hiring will almost all be able to sit in front of a Windows machine and get going. Those who have mainly worked on Apple platforms can still work productively because the application software and work-flow methods they are using are (broadly) identical, other than the obvious default location of user files and so on. Either way I will know this in advance through the job application/interview stages and I can sit them down at their desk, hand them a brief, get them logged in and expect them to start working productively for me straight away.
Most graphics designers would run a mile barefoot if you sat them down in front of a Linux desktop with GIMP and Scribus et al.
Scenario 2 (this actually happened to me recently)
My secretary is out of action for almost 2 years due to maternity leave followed by pre-arranged paid leave of absence, followed by unpaid leave. I need a replacement for her, and quickly. I get a handful of recommendations through my network of friends and I invite some people in to discuss the role and whether they would like to start quickly. One person's attitude makes her stand out from the others, we agree on suitable terms and she starts a few days later. I understand from interview that my new secretary has used many Open Source applications and has spent some time both domestically and professionally using Linux as a desktop distribution.
That's all well and groovy, but I want her to sit down on a networked Windows PC where my Domain Controller locks her system down through its very aggressive security Policy, where her documents are centrally stored on my main file server via her roaming user profile which allows her to work at any computer in the building with full access to her own files and emails and zero configuration on my part, where she uses Outlook connected to Exchange for corporate email and shared calendar management, etc, etc, etc.
The irony is that my main network application is browser based (users interact with it using Internet Explorer) and it is served from a Linux web server
Businesses won't change to Open Source and will continue to pay software license fees until they can centralise their users activities to browser based applications which can either be internally hosted or externally hosted 'cloud' apps. Think along the lines of Google Docs.
If someone ever releases a Linux distro that looks identical to Windows and that will natively run Microsoft Office, Adobe applications etc, etc and so on and so forth they will have a winner, right up until they get sued to bits for ripping the Windows GUI.
Linux is great in the right hands and certainly has its place in the world and distros like OpenSUSE and Ubuntu go a long way towards bringing the Linux desktop one step closer to a real-world reality, but you need to have a good underlying reason for going down that path and the time and inclination to devote to it, otherwise you will get nowhere fast.
Bottom line; if Linux had the same licensing costs as Windows we wouldn't even be discussing this, 58.4% (approx) of the world's web servers wouldn't be running it because flexibility of the OS and how you can configure it means almost nothing if it comes with a licensing price tag. The majority cost of corporate Linux is in support - good support staff are cheaper to run on Open Source operating systems than a combination of good support staff + Microsoft licensing. Couple that with the flexibility factor and we have a winner, unless the licensing model changes for Linux in the corporate/web server world...
Yes, you can save massive amounts of licensing cash for any large company but that would be entirely negated by the total training costs of retraining every member of staff to become fully proficient in using a new operating system and supporting applications productively. And that is why it fails to succeed (which is very different to simply failing). Not because it isn't good, but because it isn't familiar.
Sit someone who has never used an Apple Mac in front of a MacBook or an iMac and tell them you expect a productive day's work and watch what happens.
Linux as a desktop OS is broadly like that, only much, much worse, because you don't even get the familiar MS Office, Adobe CS, Filemaker and so on that the user may already know how to use.
I'm a self-confessed Linux fan but if you look at the market overall it is pretty easy to see why it isn't the runaway success so many people wish it was.
Scenario 3
A friend of mine recently had a very nasty scare when someone decided to load a live CD of Ubuntu and start tinkering. They knew just enough to access the company network shares at which point they began opening Excel spreadsheets that were password locked by personnel. I was called in to track down what had happened and why several document were now unlocked, and the member of staff in question thought it was the coolest thing ever (like he was some kind of super-hacker) when the OpenOffice software did all the work for him by simply ignoring and subsequently removing the password lock feature in the Excel spreadsheets.
His attitude changed quickly enough when he was summarily dismissed for gross misconduct three weeks before Christmas for installing / using software that was not on the permissible list of applications listed in the company's IT Policy and for inadvertently removing the security features from the documents in question, allowing subsequent users to edit instead of view in "Read Only" mode.
Until Linux mail clients grow up and start properly supporting MAPI to fully link into Exchange and include shared calendars and so on, most corporates will continue to ignore them, because they don't want to change their infrastructure and core mail services to save desktop/mail client licensing costs. Who the heck wants to run IMAP or POP just to entertain a Linux based mail client ?
Linux cannot do everything that a Windows system can, and vice versa. They can do many of the things the other can, perhaps even most things, but there are too many fundamentals that are either completely missing or flaky and once you start to challenge Linux (within and around the Windows systems they are inevitably surrounded by) the cracks really start to show, and to most users the jump is a step too far from their familiar and comfortable world.
I do almost all of my application development on Linux servers and some of my coding and network/systems diagnosis via Linux laptops but I would be insane to deliberately allow my market-share Windows skills to gather dust.
My apologies to tommy the cat for going off on one in his laptop thread - it's a subject I am passionate about
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Whoa easy there fella, that's some rant 
I agree with you in the sense that windows is the preferred platform used by the vast majority, I use it myself at home.
As you said yourself, linux can be a drop in desktop operating system in the right environment For home users . I have it on a dell inspiron 1545, as a dual boot with vista, I didn't have to hunt for any extra drivers or anything once it was installed, It found my wireless network and connected to the net straight away , no problems.
I've never used it in a professional environment, Can't say as i ever will t.b.h. ( i don't use p.c's in my line of work ), But to have it as an alternative " to tinker with " on a home p.c.
A lot of people don't like it that is true.
As for the
"I think most people's problem with it, is that its Not Windows"
It's different, It's probably never going to surpass Windows as the be all and end all , It's never gong to set the world on fire. But in a home environment, It's good to have something different that does work.
Life would be pretty boring if we only had one flavour.
I guess that's something i feel strongly about, I like Different flavours.
Sorry for the rant and hijacking of the thread.
I agree with you in the sense that windows is the preferred platform used by the vast majority, I use it myself at home.
As you said yourself, linux can be a drop in desktop operating system in the right environment For home users . I have it on a dell inspiron 1545, as a dual boot with vista, I didn't have to hunt for any extra drivers or anything once it was installed, It found my wireless network and connected to the net straight away , no problems.
I've never used it in a professional environment, Can't say as i ever will t.b.h. ( i don't use p.c's in my line of work ), But to have it as an alternative " to tinker with " on a home p.c.
A lot of people don't like it that is true.
As for the
"I think most people's problem with it, is that its Not Windows"
It's different, It's probably never going to surpass Windows as the be all and end all , It's never gong to set the world on fire. But in a home environment, It's good to have something different that does work.
Life would be pretty boring if we only had one flavour.
I guess that's something i feel strongly about, I like Different flavours.
Sorry for the rant and hijacking of the thread.
Thats ok!
Do you know I read (almost) all of what you wrote!
Dave
So l will leave Linux alone then....
Do you know I read (almost) all of what you wrote!
Dave
So l will leave Linux alone then....
Whoa easy there fella, that's some rant
Yeah, sometimes I have a lot (or too much, depending on your perspective) to say
If you read even part of it you deserve a medal
Tommy it is clear that both Tadpole and Xunil are very computer literate so anything they write is well worth bearing in mind.
However, I am not particularly computer literate and have three quite old machines running Ubuntu, all were set up and running in no time and any required drivers were automatically installed during the installation process.
With that said if the organization you work for (or are involved with) requires you to use a particular piece of software then you should get whatever the IT guy tells you to get.
If you are a digital photographer and a whizz with Photoshop then you need a Windows or an Apple machine. There may ways to get a Linux machine to open and edit the appropriate files or even run the Windows or Macintosh programs but you would just be opening a can of worms for yourself.
But if you are one of those people for whom almost all your software needs are met by a browser of some kind (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari, Chrome etc.) then you should give Ubuntu a try.
I can write stuff, read stuff, watch stuff, listen to stuff, send stuff and store stuff, just by using an internet browser.
If your use for a computer is to browse forums, send emails, research stuff, watch youtube videos and write documents then Ubuntu will do all those things out of the box, with no tricky set up required.
But why would you want to do so?
In my situation I use it because Ubuntu runs faster on my old hard wear, I don't need to upgrade my PC's because the machines that were fairly clunky and that took forever to boot up when running XP now boot up as quickly and appear to run as fast as my Macbook.
Also it looks nicer, the Windows 7 UI was obviously designed by the same team who design Smarties packets, my god it is ugly!
Give it a whirl, you never know you might like it!
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Drop me another pm with your snail mail address mucka and I'll send you a live CD so you can see for yourself. The later versions of Ubuntu are perfect for someone who wants to browse the web, download some mail and occasionally open a .pdf
You can largely ignore the scare stories as being a bit out of date. It's a geek thing... fear the unknown
Ok after farting around decided on the tosh c660 d 10f 320gb 3gb ram.and athlon v series 2.3ghz
Tesco price £369 non in stock dearer in pc world! so liked the acer. Aspire as7715 17" screen nice 320gb 4gram intel pent dual t44002.2GHZ £459 non in stock so could order for collection but was £20 dearer to have them deliver it to their store!!!!
Now it may be only £20 but the girl was right mardy so said I'd come back when back in stock.
So to acer or not to acer that is the question?!
D
Tesco price £369 non in stock dearer in pc world! so liked the acer. Aspire as7715 17" screen nice 320gb 4gram intel pent dual t44002.2GHZ £459 non in stock so could order for collection but was £20 dearer to have them deliver it to their store!!!!
Now it may be only £20 but the girl was right mardy so said I'd come back when back in stock.
So to acer or not to acer that is the question?!
D
EdS
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
you get what you pay for. Acer are cheap and cheerful - I've got one and it been fine for the last year.
Only problem was when I removed one of the keys and broke it getting it bakc. Easier to get new keyboard than mess around.
Only problem was when I removed one of the keys and broke it getting it bakc. Easier to get new keyboard than mess around.
I'd go with the 4Gb ram /Acer especially if its running Windows 7 which is a fab operating system. I run Ubuntu on an old laptop but to be honest I would not do that again, flaffing about with drivers ect; it works OK but W7 is a dream to use and even a clean install on a new system only took a very few minutes.
Ah but they are both running windows7 premium!
I was tempted by the acers larger screen but don't mind the 15" .3gb rather than 4gb on the tosh don't know for what I use would make much odds? Or £90 more well spent?!?
Dave
I won't tell you how I'm getting on buying a new kitchen lol
I've had too much Southern Comfort tonight to get too deeply into this, but the whole "don't bother to learn anything about what you're doing and just use Windows" thing leaves me a bit cold. I regularly see people sending five megabyte spreadsheets to each other by email when all they want to do is tell their correspondent the price of a bag of sugar. Windows or not Windows, if you spend just a little time learning something about what you're doing, you can make truly staggering improvements in efficiency.
It might be worth mentioning that 100% of the botnets on the planet are made up of Windows machines. I spend ridiculous amounts of time defending networks against attacks from such things so I suppose I can be expected to have a fairly jaundiced view of Windows machines in general, but looking at it from another point of view there are huge sums of money being made selling anti-virus packages for Windows machines, and I don't even consider such things for my GNU/Linux boxes. There are essentially no viruses in the wild which attack GNU/Linux machines, nor Apple machines either for that matter. Almost every Windows machine I've seen has been subject to some sort of a compromise at some time. My personal best was a customer in Sutton-in-Ashfield who had over 1,300 assorted viruses on the MD's secretary's Windows XP box. That's a security company. Still a customer. Still using Windows. To give them their due, they store no customer information on their computers, but what an indictment of Information Technology that you daren't use it for customer stuff!
When I actually try to get anything done on a Windows machine I find that the best way to make progress is to install something on the machine that gives me as near a POSIX environment as I can get, so that it doesn't feel like I'm blindfolded with my hands tied behind my back and a sock in my mouth. If it isn't a Windows box, I don't have to do that -- I can just get on with the work.
It might be worth mentioning that 100% of the botnets on the planet are made up of Windows machines. I spend ridiculous amounts of time defending networks against attacks from such things so I suppose I can be expected to have a fairly jaundiced view of Windows machines in general, but looking at it from another point of view there are huge sums of money being made selling anti-virus packages for Windows machines, and I don't even consider such things for my GNU/Linux boxes. There are essentially no viruses in the wild which attack GNU/Linux machines, nor Apple machines either for that matter. Almost every Windows machine I've seen has been subject to some sort of a compromise at some time. My personal best was a customer in Sutton-in-Ashfield who had over 1,300 assorted viruses on the MD's secretary's Windows XP box. That's a security company. Still a customer. Still using Windows. To give them their due, they store no customer information on their computers, but what an indictment of Information Technology that you daren't use it for customer stuff!
When I actually try to get anything done on a Windows machine I find that the best way to make progress is to install something on the machine that gives me as near a POSIX environment as I can get, so that it doesn't feel like I'm blindfolded with my hands tied behind my back and a sock in my mouth. If it isn't a Windows box, I don't have to do that -- I can just get on with the work.
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