Ventile Woes

[Macaroon]

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130603

I bought the smock in the link above back in April, and it's in the condition the seller described if not a little better. Fits well and is very comfortable; it's suited me very well in this somewhat cold spring we've had, so I thought at last, on the third try, I've got the ventile smock that suits my needs very well, and a decent price, too.

Went off for the first dog walk of the day just after five this morning, and about a mile or so in encountered a fairly heavy shower, not drizzle but not sheeting rain, either. Lasted about ten minutes and then eased off. To my dismay both arms were thoroughly soaked through, as was the midriff......between the bottom of the upper pockets and the top of the lower ones and all the way across the torso. I was a little dismayed, to say the least.

When I got the smock I dyed it with Dylon cotton dye, and then after drying I gave it a good dose of Granger's Fabsil; when that had dried the water beaded off the materiel in the way you'd expect with such a garment.........

What's gone wrong? I wonder if the collective mind can cast any light on this, I'm stumped, been thinking about it all day and can't fathom it.....any thoughts gratefully received, folks!

 

[John Fenna]

You should not have proofed it!
Ventile works by allowing the water to soak the cotton fibres - cotton swells when wet and closes all the gaps in the fabric weave denying water any route through....
Proofing the fibres stops the fabric absorbing water and therefore allows water through....
Dying may not have helped either...

 

[Toddy]

Ah….ventile only really works if water can actually access the surface of the fibres to swell them up and thus seal the spaces that would allow water through.

I think your 'waterproofing' might have been a bit too thorough and is stopping the most advantageous property of the fibres…..that they swell when wet.
Wash it in warm water, hang it up to air dry and it'll be a better jacket in the morning I reckon

Best of luck with it, and it'd be interesting to hear how you sort it out.

M

 

[Shewie]

There's got a to a point when expanded cotton fibres just can't cope anymore, not sure

The first ventile I used wasn't great in heavy rain, I put it down to being single layer, I had real issues on the shoulder area which then wetted out my inner layers. When I bought my own ventile I was torn whether to go for double layer in the right areas or something else, somebody put me onto the Country Innovations Kestrel smock which had a waterproof liner, after a trip to Tamarack I was sold on it. Granted I've not been out in monsoon heavy rain but I have endured quite a few grim Scottish winter canoeing trips with it. It still turns to cardboard and feels a bit clammy when it's wet, and it's getting a bit thin on the ends of the cuff in places, but it's getting on for seven years old and it's still going strong.

I treat mine a bit like Paramo, I know it's going to keep me more or less dry If the forecast if really wet I'm likely to take my Tahr instead, but then I don't like sitting around a fire in my Tahr

 

[John Fenna]

Ventile over wool or Linen is excellently comfortable. For heavy rain conditions double Ventile is best....http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/content.php?r=622-Ventile

 

[Macaroon]

Thanks for all your thoughts I'm not sure why I did proof it, as I am aware of how Ventile works, I just thought a proofing would extend the "dry time"........Oh well, I'll just have to wash it and then wear it hard 'till the proofing breaks down.

It does have double fabric over the shoulders and elbows, and those parts stayed dry......and I only ever wear Linen and Wool as mid and under layers anyway, so I'll cope with a little dampness 'till it comes right.

Thanks again, folks

 

[mountainm]

From the horses mouth, note the section on reproofing:

Taking Care of Your Ventile®
Ventile® is 100% Cotton, extremely durable and offers users many years of
protection and comfort.

Please look after the fabric for maximum durability.

• CHEMICALS – Damage to fibres can occur when in contact with acids,
bleaches and detergents. If contact does occur, soak thoroughly in cold
water.

• SAND AND GRIT – Sand and grit increases the abrasion on cotton
fibres and can reduce the lift of the jacket. Please brush off all sand, grit
and mud once dried.

• CLEANING – We recommend hand washing in Grangers Pure Liquid
Soap for Ventile , using the following procedure :

Gently brush or sponge off any dirt or grit.
Close the zip fastener
Turn the garment inside out
Hand wash in Grangers Pure Liquid Soap for Ventile.
Ensure all residue soap is removed from the garment, re-rinse if necessary.
Re-shape the garment on a hanger and allow to dry naturally avoiding direct
sunlight.
Iron carefully on a warm setting – this reactivates the DWR treatment.

• REPROOFING – Your Ventile® garment may eventually require a
reproof. Either use a product such as Grangers Extreme Waterproofing
for Naturals, following their instructions or a specialist reproofing
company familiar with Ventile® such as SPH Clothescare.

For further information call :

Ventile® +44 (0)1257 473311
Grangers +44 (0)1773 521521 www. Grangers-international.co.uk
(Grangers products are available internationally)
SPH Clothescare +44 (0)1204 525566 e.mail:admin@sph.co.uk

Ventile® – ‘The Natural Choice’

 

[Macaroon]

I knew I'd read somewhere that they used a DWR on Ventile, that's why I tried it with the Grangers - seems like I used the wrong product though, as I used ordinary Fabsil.....Oh well, we'll see how it turns out.............

 

[Clouston98]

I've been in some heavy showers and downpours in mine and it's never let me down, so as the others said I think it's down to the proofing, I'm sure it'll be fine if you wash it out as you said. Hope this helps

 

[Dave]

I dont think fabsil will hurt it too much Mac. I dont know about dying it though!
Paul of SASS told me to wash my smock as little as possible, and use nikwax cotton proof as and when i needed it. Which I found a bit useless tbh.

The SASS smocks are great as they are double in the right spots, hood and shoulders, and the poachers pocket which goes halfway up yer back, plus the large smock pockets, are triple layer really. But the stuff rips easily.

I added L24 ventile to known wear spots. Like cuffs, and the inside drawstring. And the hem. Mines yet to wet out, and Ive only hand washed it once or twice.

Ive worn one of those you've got, and it looks like a damn good smock to me.

 

[Tonyuk]

Try washing it a few times on a hot setting with detergent and a bit of fabric softener. This should cut down on the fabsil coating letting the cotton absorb the water. You could also leave the smock soaking in a bucket of water and a cupful of detergent since i know this takes away the coating on the new ones, don't know about ventile though.

Tonyuk

 

[mountainm]

funny that everyone's advice pretty much goes against that of the manufacturer. ie. Remove the DWR and do not reproof. Would love to see a simple test for hydrostatic head on 2 samples direct from the manufacturer. One "as is" with factory applied DWR, the other with DWR stripped off.

 

[John Fenna]

funny that everyone's advice pretty much goes against that of the manufacturer. ie. Remove the DWR and do not reproof. Would love to see a simple test for hydrostatic head on 2 samples direct from the manufacturer. One "as is" with factory applied DWR, the other with DWR stripped off.

Who said "Remove the DWR and do not reproof"?
The manufacturers chosen product works fine - in harmony with the fabric - Fabsil does not.

 

[mountainm]

Who said "Remove the DWR and do not reproof"?
The manufacturers chosen product works fine - in harmony with the fabric - Fabsil does not.

Sorry, but the gist seems to be it'll work without a DWR?

 

[John Fenna]

Sorry, but the gist seems to be it'll work without a DWR?

It does work without DWR - as do most waterproofs. DWR gets overpowered by heavy rain on almost any fabric and then the primary waterproofing method takes over the work.
I have it on good authority that what is now known as DWR was first applied to fabrics as a "gliding agent", to aid in laying out layers of fabric without the layers catching on each other and rucking. It was then found that the silicone surface treatment actually repelled water for a short while and was "bigged up" as extra waterproofing ...

 

[mountainm]

It does work without DWR - as do most waterproofs. DWR gets overpowered by heavy rain on almost any fabric and then the primary waterproofing method takes over the work.
I have it on good authority that what is now known as DWR was first applied to fabrics as a "gliding agent", to aid in laying out layers of fabric without the layers catching on each other and rucking. It was then found that the silicone surface treatment actually repelled water for a short while and was "bigged up" as extra waterproofing ...

Sorry I'm even more confused? Isn't Grangers (recommended) a wax proofing (hence the instructions to iron it) but traditional fabsil a silicone coating? Yet you're saying that it has a silicone surface treatment? (As such using fabsil shouldn't do any harm).

And given Grangers also make Fabsil now (which despite the name has a wax cotton spray as one of it's product lines) it confuses the issue even more.

So leaving brand names out - should the DWR for ventile be wax or silicone based?

 

[Dave]

Never wax your ventile.

 

[mountainm]

Never wax your ventile.

Wasn't recommending waxing it wax jacket style, but I believe some DWR's have a liquid wax component which once the solvent evaporates off forms the DWR, more modern applications use silicone and similar proofing instead.

 

[John Fenna]

Sorry I'm even more confused? Isn't Grangers (recommended) a wax proofing (hence the instructions to iron it) but traditional fabsil a silicone coating? Yet you're saying that it has a silicone surface treatment? (As such using fabsil shouldn't do any harm).

And given Grangers also make Fabsil now (which despite the name has a wax cotton spray as one of it's product lines) it confuses the issue even more.

So leaving brand names out - should the DWR for ventile be wax or silicone based?

Use the one Ventile recommend
Fabsil liquid proofing is designed to absorb deep into the fibers not just sit on the surface....

 

[Tonyuk]

Looking at the Grangers website all their products marked for use with clothing are under the brand name Grangers, there's only one using the Fabsil name and that's a spray on, the rest are under the for use with tents section. Maybe you've used an older product on it that has effected it badly? The newer products seem to be all silicone or acrylic based.

Tonyuk