Two thirds of confirmed birds of prey illegal killings last year linked to shooting estates...

[demographic]

Chanel 4 coverage about this. Mostly referring to one fairly close to me, Knaresdale, near Alston. From what I hear its indirectly owned by Louis Bacon of Moore Capital fame who claims to be a conservationist.
Satellite tracked bird of prey gets killed on Knaresdale estate (which is absolutely chocka with gamekeepers so I can't see other people shooting on there without permission) and they pull the dunnowotyeronabout we didn't do it we were miles away at the time, the gun just went off in my hand/whatever.
Now I'm not suggesting for a second that the hedge fund manager is directly responsible for this, but I think he does pay the people who are.

I have a bit of insider info on this place and from what I heard they used poison bait fairly recently also.

Nice to see them being pulled up on some of their alledged missdeeds.
Not sure of this will show but here goes.
[media]

If that didn't work then heres a more normal link.
Clicky here.

 

[Pattree]

Ignorance.

I was talking to a farmer neighbour about the spread of red kites across the country. She is convinced that they take newborn lambs!!! They are of course scavengers.…… but she’s not going to believe a newcomer to the village. I’ve only been here forty-eight years!

I don’t think that she does anything to the kites but with so much information available you’d think everyone would know by now.

 

[Broch]

Yep, as a shooter (not driven shoots) and a hunter, I am embarrassed by the lies and disinformation that the shooting fraternity put out. They all tag the words 'and conservation' on the end of their marketing yet slaughter any kind of predator. Unfortunately, we and such groups as the RSPB, have given them a measure on which to make the claim of being conservationists - they measure success in terms of farmland birds (there's no such thing) and song birds. They don't consider weasels, stoats, polecats, falcons, hawks, or even all the invertebrates that the millions of non-indigenous pests they breed and release eat, worth conserving

Sorry, I'll get off my hobbyhorse now.

 

[demographic]

Some info about one of his other estates. Bit of a pattern forming here...

With luck this'll work.

 

[nigelp]

Hopefully in a few years we will see the end to driven bird shoots. Can’t see how it will continue as future generations become less interested in standing around in a field slaughtering birds!

 

[nigelp]

Ignorance.

I was talking to a farmer neighbour about the spread of red kites across the country. She is convinced that they take newborn lambs!!! They are of course scavengers.…… but she’s not going to believe a newcomer to the village. I’ve only been here forty-eight years!

I don’t think that she does anything to the kites but with so much information available you’d think everyone would know by now.

Incredible really. Just one of the ‘rural’ myths spread and said with great authority and based on ignorance and a fear or unwillingness to change.

A Red Kite female only weighs about 1-1.3kg and the largest thing I have seen them ‘carry’ is a rabbit carcass.

 

[gra_farmer]

Natural England have actually been permitting culling of predatory birds by shooting estates. There was a EIR from NE that proved this....I will try and find the link and data, and from previous job role with NE / DEFRA I am not surprised.

 

[demented dale]

Chanel 4 coverage about this. Mostly referring to one fairly close to me, Knaresdale, near Alston. From what I hear its indirectly owned by Louis Bacon of Moore Capital fame who claims to be a conservationist.
Satellite tracked bird of prey gets killed on Knaresdale estate (which is absolutely chocka with gamekeepers so I can't see other people shooting on there without permission) and they pull the dunnowotyeronabout we didn't do it we were miles away at the time, the gun just went off in my hand/whatever.
Now I'm not suggesting for a second that the hedge fund manager is directly responsible for this, but I think he does pay the people who are.

I have a bit of insider info on this place and from what I heard they used poison bait fairly recently also.

Nice to see them being pulled up on some of their alledged missdeeds.
Not sure of this will show but here goes.
[media]

If that didn't work then heres a more normal link.
Clicky here.

/.

 

[Van-Wild]

The estates are of course about generating income. There is a whole economy based around rural sports. The wilful killing of birds of prey is unacceptable. Where I live there are quite a few breeding pairs scattered about and noone touches them. The numbers of birds bred for shooting is such that the estates lose hundreds every season from road kill alone. The birds of prey barely make a dent in them.

 

[Paul_B]

15 years ago I enjoyed 15 minutes watching a hen harriers hunting on the side of Clougha Pike in the Forest of Bowland. An area that has a big driven hunt industry. In fact it's shooting, United utilities or the odd independent farm in that area, certainly a big chunk of it at least. A lovely bird to watch hunt. I believe they've mostly been shot or poisoned now.

I think it's important to note that even hunting birds of prey scavenge for a proportion of their diet. Just as corvids are also hunters. This means that the birds of prey don't just get shot but poisoned too.

It's not just birds that suffer illegal killing. A friend of mine years ago told me where some farmers dump badgers they've killed so they get hit by vehicles to look like roadkill so don't get checked out. We were heading out for a walk and I pointed out an intact badger, it hadn't been hit by anything big. He pointed out that it was probably dumped by a local farmer. I got told what actually happens. He also said he didn't know which farmers did it only a few but his dad was more embedded in the wider farming community and he knew them all pretty much. Not 100% by any means, still a minority but the community is complicit just like the country sports community are with raptor deaths.

BTW I'm pro rural matters mostly but illegal killings I oppose and it makes me tend towards anti hunting.

 

[GNJC]

Ignorance.

I was talking to a farmer neighbour about the spread of red kites across the country. She is convinced that they take newborn lambs!!! They are of course scavengers.…… but she’s not going to believe a newcomer to the village. I’ve only been here forty-eight years!

I don’t think that she does anything to the kites but with so much information available you’d think everyone would know by now.

Right, I farm beef and lamb here in West Wales. We only lamb outdoors and I have seen kites waiting in a tree while a ewe lambs and then, if there is a second one coming, go down and start on the first born when the ewe is otherwise occupied.

Obviously if I'm close enough the kites will not come down, but I've it happen when I'm on one side of a field, say two only or three hundred yards away. I haven't kept count, but I guess it's at least a couple of times each year. Neighbours have the same experience.

Corvids will go for the eyes, tongue, anus and umbilical of a newborn lamb - all being easy 'entry' points. Every time I have seen a kite on a lamb it has gone for the umbilical only, my guess is that this is down to the difference in beak shape. I have never seen a kite try and take (lift) a lamb, or anything else approaching that size.

The vast majority of kite activity around lambing fields is definitely centred on clearing up afterbirth and stillborn lambs before I get to them, but that doesn't detract from what I and others have see regarding predating on live lambs.

These birds are generally scavengers, but I have also see them take live rabbits, leverets and various chicks and young birds too. They are wild animals and there is no 'rule book' for them, they're opportunistic and will take whatever protein offers the most benefit for the least outlay and risk, and that can and does occasionally include live lambs...

 

[Mesquite]

Obviously if I'm close enough the kites will not come down, but I've it happen when I'm on one side of a field, say two only or three hundred yards away. I haven't kept count, but I guess it's at least a couple of times each year. Neighbours have the same experience.

How many do you think you loose to kites out of your total lambs born and do you accept that loss as one of those things?

 

[GNJC]

15 years ago I enjoyed 15 minutes watching a hen harriers hunting on the side of Clougha Pike in the Forest of Bowland. An area that has a big driven hunt industry. In fact it's shooting, United utilities or the odd independent farm in that area, certainly a big chunk of it at least. A lovely bird to watch hunt. I believe they've mostly been shot or poisoned now.

I think it's important to note that even hunting birds of prey scavenge for a proportion of their diet. Just as corvids are also hunters. This means that the birds of prey don't just get shot but poisoned too.

It's not just birds that suffer illegal killing. A friend of mine years ago told me where some farmers dump badgers they've killed so they get hit by vehicles to look like roadkill so don't get checked out. We were heading out for a walk and I pointed out an intact badger, it hadn't been hit by anything big. He pointed out that it was probably dumped by a local farmer. I got told what actually happens. He also said he didn't know which farmers did it only a few but his dad was more embedded in the wider farming community and he knew them all pretty much. Not 100% by any means, still a minority but the community is complicit just like the country sports community are with raptor deaths.

BTW I'm pro rural matters mostly but illegal killings I oppose and it makes me tend towards anti hunting.

Certainly some of what you write does go on, I doubt it is as much as you think though. However, it is a fact that a relatively glancing hit by a car can kill a badger. If you go back to the superb children's book 'Brendon Chase' by BB, reference is made in it to the vulnerability if badgers to fairly light knocks on the head.

As a farmer, and one of the greener and wilder ones, it's very interesting for me to read the opinions of people regarding animals about which they often seem to reveal little knowledge and which have no adverse affect on them and their livelihoods.

I get a fair bit of mostly good-natured grief from my peers locally / online due to my rather radical views on rewilding and so forth (lynx, beaver, eagle etc.) and often get lumped- in with awful green types; so it really is fascinating to come on here and read about how awful farmers are...

 

[GNJC]

How many do you think you loose to kites out of your total lambs born and do you accept that loss as one of those things?

Firstly, as I've written above, I am definitely 'greener' than most in farming, so that obviously has a bearing on my conclusions. I'd be surprised if I lose any more than three or four at most in any given year to kites, certainly less than 1% of a lamb crop. Corvids will account for maybe ten times as many if given the chance, the problem is that they will not kill but so wound a lamb that it has to be killed...

Yes, it is just the way of things, as with corvids, foxes and badgers - badgers certainly take as many as foxes do, maybe more.

There are unsustainable numbers of kites around here now, and that is mainly because there are a couple of idiots within a few miles that run 'feeding stations'. While this is the case I think there should be culling; remove this and allow a natural balance to establish, and I think kites should be fully protected.

Right, I'm off back out to finish getting an ash in before the rain returns tomorrow.

 

[Paul_B]

Certainly some of what you write does go on, I doubt it is as much as you think though. However, it is a fact that a relatively glancing hit by a car can kill a badger. If you go back to the superb children's book 'Brendon Chase' by BB, reference is made in it to the vulnerability if badgers to fairly light knocks on the head.

As a farmer, and one of the greener and wilder ones, it's very interesting for me to read the opinions of people regarding animals about which they often seem to reveal little knowledge and which have no adverse affect on them and their livelihoods.

I get a fair bit of mostly good-natured grief from my peers locally / online due to my rather radical views on rewilding and so forth (lynx, beaver, eagle etc.) and often get lumped- in with awful green types; so it really is fascinating to come on here and read about how awful farmers are...

Not all farmers are and where they are also affects that. My comment was direct from the very farming community actually doing it. It is not widespread but it is happening, according to people within that community. As a farmer I'm sure you'll appreciate the auction centred social scene. Also within such communities there's certain farmers who are held in high esteem and are at the centre of the community. My friend's dad was one of those. That's how I had good reason to believe my friend when he told me about those farmers and the dumping spots.

As an aside a former work colleague told me of how she disposed of a shot fox by throwing it onto the motorway that went past one of their fields. Legal kill as they were stopping it predating on their chickens and apparently ducks too. The geese looked after themselves apparently. However the disposal does seem to be a bit iffy to me.

This is the thing. Farmers care about their livestock more than general public realise, perhaps at times it results in actions that should not be done. Especially if they do see issues that they link to a certain wild animal. Bovine TB is a classic farming trauma that can, not always, result in illegal response to perceived threat from wild animals. In this case illegal killing of badgers. It's similar with driven hunts killing of Raptors.

 

[Van-Wild]

Right, I farm beef and lamb here in West Wales. We only lamb outdoors and I have seen kites waiting in a tree while a ewe lambs and then, if there is a second one coming, go down and start on the first born when the ewe is otherwise occupied.

Obviously if I'm close enough the kites will not come down, but I've it happen when I'm on one side of a field, say two only or three hundred yards away. I haven't kept count, but I guess it's at least a couple of times each year. Neighbours have the same experience.

Corvids will go for the eyes, tongue, anus and umbilical of a newborn lamb - all being easy 'entry' points. Every time I have seen a kite on a lamb it has gone for the umbilical only, my guess is that this is down to the difference in beak shape. I have never seen a kite try and take (lift) a lamb, or anything else approaching that size.

The vast majority of kite activity around lambing fields is definitely centred on clearing up afterbirth and stillborn lambs before I get to them, but that doesn't detract from what I and others have see regarding predating on live lambs.

These birds are generally scavengers, but I have also see them take live rabbits, leverets and various chicks and young birds too. They are wild animals and there is no 'rule book' for them, they're opportunistic and will take whatever protein offers the most benefit for the least outlay and risk, and that can and does occasionally include live lambs...

I read your post with interest. And it got me thinking...

Farming is not my livelyhood. Gamekeeping isn't either, but by virtue of my trade I'm 'in' with the shooting set a lot and I do knock over a deer once a year, and I have a brace of birds here and there throughout the season. So I hear their thoughts and opinions an awful lot. On the estates where i work, birds of prey are left well alone. And if they take a young bird or a hare or whatever they're left to it. Why not? It's nature doing what nature does. Man just appears to supply a ready stock for them!

But........

If I were a farmer, and the natural balance was out of sync, and my livelyhood was being impacted by an overabundance of predators, would I take action? Yes, I would. Would I go on a killing spree? No. But I most definitely would try to address the imbalance.

An analogy I can think of is this: I'm a dog lover. I'm mental about all things dog. I work them professionally, and I train dogs for other people. (Working dogs only thanks! ). But a while ago one of my dogs was broadsided by a loose German shepherd and mauled in a turn over. I instantly went to the defence of my dog and I'm not ashamed to say I damn near had to strangle that shepherd to get it off my dog. My dog is my livelihood and if I lose a dog I can't work.

So thinking about it like that, I see where you're coming from. Like I said, reading your post made me think.....

 

[GNJC]

Some fair comments there. Badgers is an interesting one... most with cattle around here are dairy, only a couple of us purely beef. TB has been an enormous problem for them, and the idiocy of Westminster and Cardiff with an obstinate refusal to seriously look at culls or vaccination simply infuriates people.

Badgers had a sore deal with the disgusting practice of baiting, but the Badgers Act went too far in the degree of protection offered to them. Anyone wanting to argue that badgers are a special case needs to do an awful lot of homework and find some interesting new facts, because any rational assessment of the situation will conclude otherwise. And I write that with regard to the damage they can cause in agriculture, infrastructure and - with unnaturally high numbers now - to other native species.

I have had one particularly stupid woman, newly moved here from Bristol, tell me that 'the badgers were here first you know...' The temptation to use expletives then was and now is great, but BCUK being a family forum, of course I shan't.

But, having counted to ten slowly... of course they were here 'first'; they were everywhere first! I guarantee they were under your houses, your workplaces, your schools, your hospitals, your shops and your roads 'first'. And I guarantee that my fields have been farmed for longer than 99% of the roads and 99.99% of all those other things.

But because farming has worked with nature and not destroyed, they are still here, and not in all those other places anymore. I hope that sinks in with some who may look at ag' with some contempt.

I don't know a single farmer who'd ever want to see all badgers, foxes etc. around them destroyed; but I bet you I could find a lot of people in any given housing estate who'd happily see all the mice gone forever, and what about rats (although, fair play, they aren't native species.)

Needless to say, the 'lady' in question doesn't talk to me after my mentioning these things to her; I am trying to survive this terrible penalty...

 

[jcr71]

probably not a popular opinion here but several times this year a sparrowhawk has killed song birds in my back garden.
i would quite happily shoot it.

 

[Wildgoose]

probably not a popular opinion here but several times this year a sparrowhawk has killed song birds in my back garden.
i would quite happily shoot it.

We’ve had two sparrowhawk strikes in the last week, a pigeon and a squirrel.

The squirrel remains (mostly intestines and sinew) looked worrying Tabby like….

 

[Pattree]

@jcr71
That’s different!
Song birds have survived predation since before humans arrived. They are a prey species. Their fecundity is balanced by predation. All any songbird pair needs to do is raise two progeny to breeding status and so on and numbers will remain steady. Tit pairs produce up to thirty chicks a year. Only two need to make it to breeding status.
I love a garden full of birds but I’m not sentimental about them - I’m fascinated.

If every chick survived to breeding they would very quickly outstrip their feeding areas.
Farming is different because there is no balance to be achieved - every lamb is a number on the pay cheque. Farmers have a right to protect what will eventually be my Easter lunch but they need to protect from real rather than folkloric enemies. For the most part that is exactly what my farming neighbours do. They are protectors of land way beyond anything that I can do.