The world's gone mad (again)

[daveO]

A bit of a sad story on the BBC website this morning.

"Thousands of knives and sharp objects are being confiscated annually at London family courts, with campaigners saying it showed how "desensitised" some people were to carrying weapons."

"The figures for shorter blades include items of cutlery, razors, pen knives, key rings and scissors which have been confiscated"

It seems to me that this is more of a case where legal items are being confiscated from people who didn't know they couldn't have them with them but the anti-knife brigade seem to be pushing this as the 'normalisation' of carrying knives. Ok the 86 illegal knives are a different case but it's not thousands.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49033430

At least it's not just the UK though. Backpackers were fined and thrown out of venice for brewing a coffee.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49054042

 

[Wander]

I think you may be being a bit too apologetic and sensitive.
Look at your own quote - 'confiscated...at London FAMILY COURTS' (my emphasis).

Cutlery, razors, pen knives, scissors...who goes to a COURT with these items!?
And why?
Whether legal or not in every day life you have to be a bit of a bell end to walk in to a court with such objects. Mind you, judging by the look of a good many of the characters I see waiting outside the local magistrates court, it seems that description is all too fitting.
And I think they are right, carrying items (using the smokescreen of such items being legal) that can be used as weapons is becoming normalised amongst some people, especially those who live in cities (i.e. London, as the report you quote says).

Not sure of the relevance of your second story of the backpackers brewing up is.
Their status as backpackers is irrelevant. It could have been anyone - the story says that broke a by-law on picnicking. It wasn't to do with a camp stove (if that was your point), or they were acting in a threatening or dangerous manner. Just no picnicking allowed in Venice.
Although I agree that no picnicking seems a bit martinet. But then I don't know the reasons for the by-law.

So step down, and chill out.
Middle-aged men in the woods (where they have permission to be) can still have a knife with them.

 

[Glass-Wood-Steel]

Since when did carrying a UK legal knife become abnormal? I have had a pocket knife of some shape or form on me since I was about 8 years old. I agree there are places where you should consider leaving it at home but relegating them to the woods is a backwards step. Prohibition never solved much, dealing with the issues that cause the violence would be a better idea.

 

[Billy-o]

Cutlery, razors, pen knives, scissors...who goes to a COURT with these items!?
And why?

A knife, OK, maybe I don't know an overwhelming proportion of people who carry a knife daily, though I do know plenty. But scissors or a razor ... especially if you are travelling, which isn't beyond comprehension when it comes to attending court ... always bearing in mind that the majority of people in a court room arent the 'characters' you refer to ... Family court is mainly social services people and the like

The bigger concern is that the pieces are being confiscated. Two years ago getting my passport renewed in central London, I accidentally had a SAK with me. The door just asked to leave it with them til I was done. Things changed since?

My guess is that part of the report is info-soft. If it's not, the OP is dead right. World has gone mad again.

 

[Billy-o]

dp

 

[Mesquite]

The bigger concern is that the pieces are being confiscated. Two years ago getting my passport renewed in central London, I accidentally had a SAK with me. The door just asked to leave it with them til I was done. Things changed since?

The actual issue on that is that it is actually illegal to carry any type of bladed article into a UK court regardless if it's a street legal EDC or not.

That is why they are confiscated.

There is a caveat to the confiscation though in that you can write to the court and provide a reciept number along with a description and normally you'll have it returned to you.

As in all press articles they fail to tell you everything and whip up the negative for the sake or a sensational headline

 

[Broch]

Yep, as has been said, you cannot carry any blade into a UK court.

Surprisingly, a guy from the local village had his SAK confiscated when he attended court - why surprising? because he was an ex copper!!

A friend attended a meeting in two Government offices in Cardiff a few months ago; he had his penknife confiscated at the reception of one after going through a scanner and totally ignored at the other going through a scanner. It was a locking knife and when he returned to collect it from the first one there was a police officer there who said "I don't know what is considered acceptable where you live, but don't come back to Cardiff carrying that knife"

 

[Billy-o]

confiscated

Ah! Does confiscated not necessarily mean taken away from you permanently, then?

 

[Broch]

No, but it depends on who confiscates it really. The ex police officer had to apply to have it returned; my friend just picked it up from the office security people.

 

[Mesquite]

Ah! Does confiscated not necessarily mean taken away from you permanently, then?

It can do but usually it means it's taken from you and can be returned at a later date

 

[Billy-o]

Got it

 

[santaman2000]

Maybe I misread the OP. I didn’t understand his chief complaint to be that the items were confiscated (although I did see it as a secondary complaint) Ratjer I understood his chief complaint to be the wording of the article:

“Thousands of lives and sharp objects are being confiscated annually at London family courts, with some campaigners saying it showed how “desensitized” some people were to carrying weapons.”

My take on that is that the authors are trying to push an opinion that such legal TOOLS shouldn’t be allowed anyway so they’re trying to paint them and the people who carry them in a bad light.

 

[santaman2000]

As a former cop, “confiscation” was ALWAYS permanent unless a court ordered an item to be returned.

 

[Wander]

As with all things, it's context.
To suggest that legal items are being confiscated from all and sundry is knee-jerk sensationalism and simply untrue (as the anecdote above about someone with a LOCK knife having it returned by a policeman).
Let's look aside the courts scenario, where it's pretty clear cut.

So let's say there's a group of teenagers hanging around the stairs by the local shops. Each has a 12" screwdriver tucked down their trousers.
A screwdriver is a perfectly legal item. But in that context? Would you rather a police officer let them keep hold of those legal screwdrivers or would you rather he use his common sense and confiscate them before someone gets stabbed?
And if you think the same would happen to a middle-aged man, in coveralls, wearing a tool-belt, popped into those shops then you are being wilfully disingenuous.
Context.
The police are trying to target inner-city knife crime which, let's be honest, has been quite prolific recently.
That's who they're after and that's who they're targeting. Not fat men wearing olive drab going for a walk around the local woods with a penknife in their pack.
Stop being paranoid.

 

[Woody110]

I have managed to talk myself into hosting a discussion on knife laws at the moot.
My intention is to bring a objective view on the carrying of, use of and why they can have a bad press, I will try get hold of some photographs so please bear this in mind for the younger ones. If they do come, I’ll put the photos to one side.

So if you're at the moot, come along for a chat.
Bring a coffee and a happy head to discuss what can be a heated topic.

 

[santaman2000]

As with all things, it's context.
To suggest that legal items are being confiscated from all and sundry is knee-jerk sensationalism and simply untrue (as the anecdote above about someone with a LOCK knife having it returned by a policeman).
Let's look aside the courts scenario, where it's pretty clear cut.

So let's say there's a group of teenagers hanging around the stairs by the local shops. Each has a 12" screwdriver tucked down their trousers.
A screwdriver is a perfectly legal item. But in that context? Would you rather a police officer let them keep hold of those legal screwdrivers or would you rather he use his common sense and confiscate them before someone gets stabbed?
And if you think the same would happen to a middle-aged man, in coveralls, wearing a tool-belt, popped into those shops then you are being wilfully disingenuous.
Context.
The police are trying to target inner-city knife crime which, let's be honest, has been quite prolific recently.
That's who they're after and that's who they're targeting. Not fat men wearing olive drab going for a walk around the local woods with a penknife in their pack.
Stop being paranoid.

Exactly; it’s all in context. The authors are pushing the theory that anybody outside a certain context shouldn’t have a knife.

 

[Billy-o]

Not fat men wearing olive drab going for a walk around the local woods with a penknife in their pack.

Or the white van, and pair of mastiffs ... c'mon context. There's plenty of rural scamps in DPM out there. You saying because you are of meek heart and wearing the Lincoln green you simply won't get pulled by the feds if someone decides to get a bit short-fused and brexitbonkers in a lane outside Ludlow ... like that is beyond the bounds of possibility?

I don't think it is an issue of paranoia, really. It is more a question of checking in with good people about these scaremongering stories and reassuring yourself that you are not on the slippery road to howling delusion yourself.

 

[plastic-ninja]

It seems to me that, as usual, it’s a lack of education to blame for the problem and the perception of that problem as well.
Obviously one would not take anything which could be reasonably thought of as a weapon into a court of law any more than you would take it into an aeroplane as hand luggage.
However, it should be be construed as absolutely normal for a mature person to have a pocketknife or a SAK for those everyday necessities for which they were invented. Pocketknives, and indeed the vast majority of knives, are tools created for lawful purposes. Combat knives, daggers etc fall more easily into the weapons category and could all be quite reasonably banned.
Truth is though that most deliberate stabbings are done with cheap kitchen knives from the pound shop or the supermarket.
It may be too late, but if we could teach people to see knives as tools rather than weapons the world might go mad less often.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Agree with everything you say, except this.

...Combat knives, daggers etc fall more easily into the weapons category and could all be quite reasonably banned.
....

I do agree that the purpose of daggers is almost invariably as a weapon, and that it is fairly easy to define a dagger, as many places have, and banned them. (I don't think this would make a bit of difference to crime and would be a pointless political move.) There is, however, no good or easy definition for a "combat knife" and what is more, most of the knives carried in combat zones are carried as tools first and foremost. Combat knives are not the same as fighting knives, which are again hard to define with a simple list of characteristics. For instance, half of everything made by Fallkniven, Becker, and ESEE, all very popular outdoors knives, are carried by and even issued to troops, while being incredibly rarely used in crime.

These days, I make it a point, every time I can, of carrying a knife in my aeroplane carry-on, well, actually, in my pocket, but definitely in the cabin

Chris.

 

[plastic-ninja]

Agree with everything you say, except this.


Chris.

Fair enough Chris. I wasn’t very clear in what I meant by combat knife. I was thinking very specifically of knives intended as stabbing weapons rather than the more utilitarian military issue survival tool style.
I didn’t realise that it was possible to carry a pocketknife onto a plane at all these days. I remember my 80 year old father in law loudly protesting the confiscation of his pocketknife at Manchester airport on a family holiday. He was genuinely appalled and affronted that the security people thought that his little lamb foot penknife was a weapon. It had never even crossed his mind that it was anything other than a tool.