Stropping
- Thread starter Shinken
- Start date
Dont use green paste then?? 
Whatever works and gives you the edge
then go for it. It might be your using too much? I tried the wheels with white and gray compounds and found a litle and often worked best I also "dressed" the wheel ocasionally with a wire brush to get some clean fibres to use. If the wheels get all matted and clotted with black lumps it didnt work so well I thought. My favourite stropping things are waterstone dust (seems quite a few folks also use that) and solvol chrome polish. I use leather or cardboard or soft wood as a base for them, cheap simple and reliable, no machine no gadget. I saw a photo once of a home made polishing machine where they had a washing motor upright with a thick wood disk like a record player spinning slowly. They impregnated it with compound, switch on and your done. My Dad's firm made and sold machines that worked the same way, a solid copper disk (about an inch thick) revolving slowly and done with fine diamong paste. It was to do microtome blades for pathology labs. Those blades have to be real sharp to get a micro thin section without destroying the cell structure. The machine held the blade in a clamp and automatically turned it this way and that alternately to a pefect pre set bevel.
Whatever works and gives you the edge
then go for it. It might be your using too much? I tried the wheels with white and gray compounds and found a litle and often worked best I also "dressed" the wheel ocasionally with a wire brush to get some clean fibres to use. If the wheels get all matted and clotted with black lumps it didnt work so well I thought. My favourite stropping things are waterstone dust (seems quite a few folks also use that) and solvol chrome polish. I use leather or cardboard or soft wood as a base for them, cheap simple and reliable, no machine no gadget. I saw a photo once of a home made polishing machine where they had a washing motor upright with a thick wood disk like a record player spinning slowly. They impregnated it with compound, switch on and your done. My Dad's firm made and sold machines that worked the same way, a solid copper disk (about an inch thick) revolving slowly and done with fine diamong paste. It was to do microtome blades for pathology labs. Those blades have to be real sharp to get a micro thin section without destroying the cell structure. The machine held the blade in a clamp and automatically turned it this way and that alternately to a pefect pre set bevel. 
I can't help but feel that any advice to you would be anything but 'coals to Newcastle', but I have to say that the only polishing compound that I've used to date is the blue stuff, for no other reason that it's easy to obtain in the UK. It works for for me, is all I can say. And in any event, I've given up on the shaving arm hair thing as the 'emprors new clothes' syndrome. All I'm interested in is : 'does it cut the stuff I want it to cut?' I've come to the conclusion that the whole shaving hair thing is a load of 'b*ollocks, and strictly for the uninformed
Best regards,
Paul.
PS: How much would one of those Giraffe handled F1s! cost? (serious)
EDIT: Better still, an S1 with Giraffe.
Best regards,
Paul.
PS: How much would one of those Giraffe handled F1s! cost?
(serious)EDIT: Better still, an S1 with Giraffe.
I've enever tried the green stuff Shinken. All I use is either the standard blue stuff from Starkies, Autosol chrome polish from Halfords or the blue buffing wheel compound from Cromwells. (Unless I'm going for truly "silly-sharp" when I go down to Jewellers Rouge ) The stuff from Cromwells is pretty much the same garde as that from Starkies as best I can tell, but the wax base is much harder and it can be a pain to get it onto the strop nicely. With a buffing wheel far more heat is generated through high speed and friction and the compound would apply to that nicely as the wax base softens in the heat.
I think Bardster uses the green stuff. Perhaps he'll enlighten us all on it's merits and any pitfalls ?
) The stuff from Cromwells is pretty much the same garde as that from Starkies as best I can tell, but the wax base is much harder and it can be a pain to get it onto the strop nicely. With a buffing wheel far more heat is generated through high speed and friction and the compound would apply to that nicely as the wax base softens in the heat.I think Bardster uses the green stuff. Perhaps he'll enlighten us all on it's merits and any pitfalls ?
I want it to cut arm hairs and when they are gone, leg hairs
Cool
...The materials alone come to 140
I might still be up for it if the labour is no more than a tenner
Cheers,
Paul.
PS: Seriously though, Shinken, PM me with an idea of the total costs, it may be too rich for me, but I am tempted.
I know that if I strop Eg turning chisels on a cloth wheel or leather or wood base etc, there are definate benefit's. If the steel near the cutting edge is mirror polished you get much better cuts for fine finishing and the detail is crisper, in fact you dont need to use sandpaper to finish the turning as so many rely on now with all the gadgets and systems you can buy. Theres as little resistance on the edge as possible so it cuts at a near theoretical level of perfect efficiency. You can see the difference on the wood surface, the stropped polished blade will leave a smoother burnished finish with next to no tear-out. Same with my adzes if I strop them I get finish quality cuts no need to resort to sand paper if I make a chair seat. Obviously for some bushcraft task's this finish quality isnt important? You can re strop a few times before you need to go back to the wheel. I think its a case of getting a feel for the right combination of steel type and compound, but I dont know that much about it only what has worked thus far for me. My understanding is that grinding/filing/stoning/stropping removes progressively finer scratches from the steel near the edge with the aim of acheiving (theoretically) mirror smooth surfaces either side of the cuting edge and an "invisible" 1 micron edge . Using the tool eventually puts scratches, even nicks etc back onto that cutting edge, especially if grit or nails got in among it and depending on the durability/rockwell hardness etc of your chosen steel. So the ocasional touch up maintains its efficiency for longer, in my experience. I have sometines just used the leg on my denim jeans or shirt sleeve to strop my opinel knife, and raw leather I have also used. Joiners remove the wire edge off of plane blades just on their hand's, so maybe it is so that you dont need compound? But it is astonishing how a blade that seems sharp (then when you look with a lens you see tiny scratches and serration's that reduce the cutting efficiency) rapidly improves if you go 2 maybe 3 times over waterstone dust or solvol polish and those scratches are gone. Of course at the end of the day as the man said what counts is does it cutt the stuff I want it to cut? Maybe just match the level of sharpening to the task in hand? Sometimes sharpening per se can bcome a fetish thing in itself rather than a utilitarian activity with purely practical purpose.
. Using the tool eventually puts scratches, even nicks etc back onto that cutting edge, especially if grit or nails got in among it and depending on the durability/rockwell hardness etc of your chosen steel. So the ocasional touch up maintains its efficiency for longer, in my experience. I have sometines just used the leg on my denim jeans or shirt sleeve to strop my opinel knife, and raw leather I have also used. Joiners remove the wire edge off of plane blades just on their hand's, so maybe it is so that you dont need compound? But it is astonishing how a blade that seems sharp (then when you look with a lens you see tiny scratches and serration's that reduce the cutting efficiency) rapidly improves if you go 2 maybe 3 times over waterstone dust or solvol polish and those scratches are gone. Of course at the end of the day as the man said what counts is does it cutt the stuff I want it to cut? Maybe just match the level of sharpening to the task in hand? Sometimes sharpening per se can bcome a fetish thing in itself rather than a utilitarian activity with purely practical purpose.
Superb post, mr dazzler. I agree with everything you say, and many a novice should meditate upon your words, for they contain much truth and wisdom, that I feel has been gained through much experience.
Though I fear that your words will only be understood by those who already know
Best regards,
Paul (he with hairy arms)
Though I fear that your words will only be understood by those who already know
Best regards,
Paul (he with hairy arms)
Hi Greenman
I sometimes think that the the harder you try to sharpen the more elusive a sharp edge becomes And it has to be said theres a whole sharpening gadget industry out there, certainly for woodworkers, is it the same for bushcrafter's? I mean old craftsmen didnt have all the gadegts did they but they DID have absolutely first rate manual skills and dexterity/hand eye coordination/sensitivity for materials in their season's etc. Like the chairmaker as could keep all the compound angles in his mind, no need for a rod or design, or the boatbuilders had the form in their mind. Some master japanese carpenters cut mortices and tennons by eye, dont set them out first as westerners do! My best tool for creating a near decent edge is a simple file, sandvik preferably nicholson saw file, fine engineers files, mill files, whatever, I buy wiseley on ebay and pick up bargains when they are there. I have a small box of various pencil norton stones (ebay again!) to further refine edges, and the stropping option's I mentioned before. Good steel in your axe/knife or whatever you are using helps a lot, good steel almost sharpens itself Some is dense and firm, some is soft and crumbly, some has a strong fibrous structure, some will take and keep an edge some wont (eg my machine mart "bill hook" ) some has a variety of qualities in one piece if it was from a cheapo bad batch (even Disston saw steel got like that towards the end) I once sharpened a saw for someone, it was a cadillac type late disston with the "aloominum handle" Most of the teeth were avaerage, but one spot was as soft as putty, a different spot was so hard it took the teeth off the file Crappy indifferent quality control.
Is it true or is it a myth that japanese carpenters could sharpen a plane blade and tune the plane body so well that if they started the plane cutting at the top of a sloping board, it would continue shaving downhill just under it own weight?? For me thats when all this sharpening stuff gets weird, like a religious thing or something. It would be something to see though
cheers Jonathan
I sometimes think that the the harder you try to sharpen the more elusive a sharp edge becomes
And it has to be said theres a whole sharpening gadget industry out there, certainly for woodworkers, is it the same for bushcrafter's? I mean old craftsmen didnt have all the gadegts did they but they DID have absolutely first rate manual skills and dexterity/hand eye coordination/sensitivity for materials in their season's etc. Like the chairmaker as could keep all the compound angles in his mind, no need for a rod or design, or the boatbuilders had the form in their mind. Some master japanese carpenters cut mortices and tennons by eye, dont set them out first as westerners do! My best tool for creating a near decent edge is a simple file, sandvik preferably nicholson saw file, fine engineers files, mill files, whatever, I buy wiseley on ebay and pick up bargains when they are there. I have a small box of various pencil norton stones (ebay again!) to further refine edges, and the stropping option's I mentioned before. Good steel in your axe/knife or whatever you are using helps a lot, good steel almost sharpens itself Some is dense and firm, some is soft and crumbly, some has a strong fibrous structure, some will take and keep an edge some wont (eg my machine mart "bill hook" ) some has a variety of qualities in one piece if it was from a cheapo bad batch (even Disston saw steel got like that towards the end) I once sharpened a saw for someone, it was a cadillac type late disston with the "aloominum handle" Most of the teeth were avaerage, but one spot was as soft as putty, a different spot was so hard it took the teeth off the file Crappy indifferent quality control.Is it true or is it a myth that japanese carpenters could sharpen a plane blade and tune the plane body so well that if they started the plane cutting at the top of a sloping board, it would continue shaving downhill just under it own weight?? For me thats when all this sharpening stuff gets weird, like a religious thing or something. It would be something to see though
cheers Jonathan
Hi Shinken,
Is that with a japanese water stone, also what tool is it a knife? I have a few of those japanease stone's (up to 8,000 I believe, one of the housebrick sized ones on a cedar stand). I dont think you will get much closer to a theoretical "perfect" edge than with one of those, otherwise its getting into the "realms of fantasy" as captain mannering would say It reminds me of the rivalry between scientists who would make a micro thin piece of glass capillary tubing and send it to their rival/colleauges as a challenge, then the rivals would send it back-with a still finer piece of their glass tube inside If you got good well defined bevel off a 10,000 stone you should have an edge that will be useful for any task. Stropping might or might not not improve it, I dont know for sure. BUT I do know stropping can sometimes ruin a good edge if it was done badly (IE holding the tool at the wrong angle and actually defacing and rounding over the edge instead of burnishing it) This would not be an issue if you went from file to norton 1000 to strop, but from a 10,000 stone it would cruelly shoe up poor stropping technique? So you could undo all your good work on the stone if the stropping was careless no matter what compound etc you used.
Is that with a japanese water stone, also what tool is it a knife? I have a few of those japanease stone's (up to 8,000 I believe, one of the housebrick sized ones on a cedar stand). I dont think you will get much closer to a theoretical "perfect" edge than with one of those, otherwise its getting into the "realms of fantasy" as captain mannering would say
It reminds me of the rivalry between scientists who would make a micro thin piece of glass capillary tubing and send it to their rival/colleauges as a challenge, then the rivals would send it back-with a still finer piece of their glass tube inside If you got good well defined bevel off a 10,000 stone you should have an edge that will be useful for any task. Stropping might or might not not improve it, I dont know for sure. BUT I do know stropping can sometimes ruin a good edge if it was done badly (IE holding the tool at the wrong angle and actually defacing and rounding over the edge instead of burnishing it) This would not be an issue if you went from file to norton 1000 to strop, but from a 10,000 stone it would cruelly shoe up poor stropping technique? So you could undo all your good work on the stone if the stropping was careless no matter what compound etc you used.Yep waterstones up to 10.000
It could be poor stropping, but i tend to hold the bevel flat against the leather with paste. When using just leather i increase the angle.
Maybe i should just go with what works for me, trouble is i am always keen to learn to do things in other ways
It could be poor stropping, but i tend to hold the bevel flat against the leather with paste. When using just leather i increase the angle.
Maybe i should just go with what works for me, trouble is i am always keen to learn to do things in other ways
...I sometimes think that the the harder you try to sharpen the more elusive a sharp edge becomes
This is very true indeed, it can be a situation of diminishing returns if one tries too hard, too soon.
I suspect it is true. I made a conscious desision not to buy a sharpening system when I first started to buy outdoor knives. Initially because of cost, but then from a desire to acquire the freehand skills, and on the smallest stones possible (for the challenge). For blades intended to be used outdoors, I've yet to find a more versatile stone than the DC4. I'm not saying it isn't out there, I just haven't bought it yet
But it is early days, still, and I've plenty on the shopping list to try out.By the way, I don't, and don't think I ever will, refer to myself as a bushcrafter, spiritually speaking, I would be more comfortable with the label 'woodsman'. But I don't want to get too fancy with the terminology, as my outdoor interests are still pretty much in their infancy, but woodcraft is one of the central themes of my interest.
My first serious 'strong user' knife was a Fallkniven F1. I chose this knife mainly because of the very, very reasonable cost for the quality of the knife and sheath, and it had a convex cross-section, which from everything I was reading on forums, was what seemed to freak-out most knife users (certainly newbies), so I just had to get one, and then try sharpening it on a flat stone (double freak-out - according to what I was reading
). Incidentally, it did freak me too, when I had the F1 in my hand and tried to sharpen it on a flat stone (not that it needed sharpening - newbie mistake No1! - trying to sharpen a knife that doesn't need sharpening ).This is skill at it's very finest, and I wouldn't ever expect to achive this. I wouldn't have the time or the opportunities, or the need.
Nice.
...Good steel in your axe/knife or whatever you are using helps a lot, good steel almost sharpens itself
Again, very true. It becomes apparent very quickly that the saying "you can't polish a turd"' is no cliche.
...Some is dense and firm, some is soft and crumbly, some has a strong fibrous structure, some will take and keep an edge some wont (eg my machine mart "bill hook"
Well, you certainly have the experience, and it shows.
...Is it true or is it a myth that japanese carpenters could sharpen a plane blade and tune the plane body so well that if they started the plane cutting at the top of a sloping board, it would continue shaving downhill just under it own weight?? For me thats when all this sharpening stuff gets weird, like a religious thing or something. It would be something to see though
Yeah, I'm not a great one for mythology, but this kind of thing is way beyond my experience, so I'm in a poor position to say that it can't be done, but I think that there is a lot of mythologising that goes on when it comes to sharpening a blade.
And not wanting to sound too mystical myself, but I have stated in the past that 'understanding' a blade is important. Almost every knife is unique, in terms of it's design, and I think that understanding why a blade is the shape that it is is vital in gaining a true understanding of how it should be sharpened. I think that at a certain point, and when a certain level of experience is gained, the 'why' of it all starts to slot into place, then one's learning becomes accelerated, and then one reaches a point at which there is no real practical purpose in going beyond.
My personal opinion in respect to outdoor knifes, is that once one has acquired the knowledge (through practice) of how to hone any knife on a flat stone, then stropping on bare leather is pretty much all that is required. That knife will do anything that one reasonably requires of it.
Going beyond that point may be fun and instructive, but it is not in anyway necessary, in the outdoors at least.
Go on, I dare you, try the Astonish paste that's meant to clean kitchen worktops and glass hobs. £1 a tub and it's really, really good. The orange stuff is excellent on a piece of leather and the white paste is incredibly effective onthe buff wheel.
cheers,
Toddy
cheers,
Toddy
Hi Shinken,
Is that with a japanese water stone, also what tool is it a knife? I have a few of those japanease stone's (up to 8,000 I believe, one of the housebrick sized ones on a cedar stand). I dont think you will get much closer to a theoretical "perfect" edge than with one of those, otherwise its getting into the "realms of fantasy" as captain mannering would say
At this kind of level I think that only a microscope could determine what is actually taking place at the cutting edge (Ive had one on the shopping list for some time
).The Experiments on Knife Sharpening file makes for interesting reading in the Downloads section:
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads/file-downloads/file-downloads.html
... trouble is i am always keen to learn to do things in other ways
That's no bad thing at all. Even if one ultimately decides that the returns are not worth the extra effort.
Best regards,
Paul.
Hi Toddy
I suspect that ajax, cif cream cleaner, toothpaste etc would all work too. I've never tried them, but twould be interesting to see. But if you go to a fancy retail store they sell you the same stuf in 50 g bottle's for £7.99 or whatever. It may be that the quality control on a dedicated stroping compound means that the individual particles fall within a specified size? I mean you dont buy 8000 grit toothpaste do you
. Ajax would be on the coarse end of the scale I reckon.Excellent comment's greenman. This applie's to many things not just blade's. (I think I know what you mean about understanding a blade). For instance I was looking at canoe paddles, I want to axe carve a small one first for my little 3 year old, for me to get the feel of the form and for him to have a "real" paddle for his plastic box "boat" (we havent actually got a canoe yet, I have had a phobia about canoes and ice cold water after an incident many years ago that brought me close to death. Maybe facing that fear, with my boys, will help me overcome it) then maybe do a bigger one for myself to use? Naievely and in ignorance I thought a paddle is a paddle is a paddle.......
But I began to discover there are different forms and types developed for varying water conditions, depths, boat types etc. To the point where it could get so itty bitty and bogged down with unecessary detail that I could easily lose sight of the fact I want to propel a canoe through water, first an foremost, hopefully as efficiently as possible!Cheers Jonathan
Similar threads
