Sparks from a Helle blade????

[Spacemonkey]

I don't normally flick through this section so I apologise if this hasd already been covered.

The thing is, I have a very nice Helle Eggen knife that won't really spark a fire steel. My Moras do after i have squared off the top edge, even the stainless one, but the Helle won't. It has a sharp squared off back, but the only bit that will spark is right at the tip where the inner laminate is exposed.

Is there any way to get it to give a spark, or is the outer laminate simply non compatible with the fire steel?

 

[Longstrider]

As has been said many times, ANY steel should give good sparks from a ferro rod if it has a sharp enough edge to scrape material from the rod. I don't know the particular knife in question, but is it possible that the spine is not as sharply cornered as you think? Are you holding the flat of the spine against the ferro rod and therefore not letting the corner "dig in" to the ferro rod enough. Holding the knife with the blade at about a 45 degree angle to the rod would help there.
Without seeing the knife up close I cannot think of any other reason why it shouldn't work.

 

[laurens ch]

The outer laminated steel is probably too soft, you could always use the striker that came with it or a hack saw blade.

 

[Spacemonkey]

Yes, I am doing it correctly. Like i said, the Moras do it fine now I have made a crisp edge in the back, and the Helle already has one. I took the file to it to make sure, but the sparks are so weedy they are useless, unless i use the bit on the tip where the internal layer is exposed. I've tried every angle combo i can think of, but no joy...

I don't know how much you know of the Helle blades, but they are quite thick and made from a triple steel laminate thus: http://www.helleknives.com/knifeconst.html and this is the knife: http://www.helleknives.com/product17.html

 

[stone]

I'm just making a knife at the moment, and wanted it for bushcrafting purposes such as this, and have the same problem. It doesn't really get much spark action at all, just a warmish orange glow off a couple of sparks. I'm using 01 Steel -5mm thick steel and bloody sharp at the edge too, but it hasn't been tempered yet. Maybe thats the difference??

My cheapo hunting knife (no idea what metal) works great for this...go figure...

~mike

 

[Nathan Sturgess]

I had this with a carbon steel mora, I filed the edge as much I could but still no look with sparks, I swapped it with a mate for something and he had no problem getting sparks. No then my new Bruslettokniven made out of stainless-carbon, had no bother producing the best sparks I ever saw. I thought I was going to have to file and file again but it worked straight away.

 

[mark a.]

I suspect Laurens is right - the outer laminate is too soft. The inner is Rockwell 58-59, so is nice and hard for the firesteel (hence it works when you're using the tip). The website doesn't state what the hardness of the outer laminate is, but it's going to be softer - possibly too soft to scrape the firesteel enough.

 

[C_Claycomb]

My knife won’t cast sparks from fire steel.
There are only three things that this could be.
1. Your knife’s spine does not have sharp enough corners on the spine. Use a file or a sharpening stone to grind the spine square. You are trying to machine (mechanically cut into) the ferro rod. Its no different really from a high speed saw or grinder throwing sparks as it cuts steel.
2. Your knife’s spine is too soft. If your knife has had a differential heat treatment to give it a hard cutting edge and a soft/springy back it may not be hard enough at the spine to throw really good sparks. The Kellam Wolverine and all other Precision Tempered blades fall into this category, as might some customs that are differentially tempered or hardened.

I suppose that some laminated blades will fall under section 2 as well. That you get sparks at the tip, where you are working with the core steel would suggest this is correct.


Stone, I think you are talking about real flint and striking sparks off your spine, whereas everyone else is talking about using their spines to makes sparks off a Swedish Firesteel type ferrocerium rod. Your untempered O-1 is almost undoubtedly a bit too hard. It is normal to temper before sharpening since if you mess up the temper, over-do it, you will have to go back to the heating and quenching, hence will have to re-sharpen. Not to mention the danger of the blade being brittle, O-1 is quite able to break itself with internal stresses if left untemptered after it has been quenched to full hardness (though not much of a danger on simple torch hardened steel)

 

[andyn]

My Helle doesn't cast a nice hot shower of sparks either. I belive it is because the spine is too soft. I tried filing it but it made no difference like with yourself.

I have resided to the fact that the Helle blade was not designed to be used with a ferro rod and use the striker that came with the rod.

 

[stone]

Stone, I think you are talking about real flint and striking sparks off your spine, whereas everyone else is talking about using their spines to makes sparks off a Swedish Firesteel type ferrocerium rod. Your untempered O-1 is almost undoubtedly a bit too hard. It is normal to temper before sharpening since if you mess up the temper, over-do it, you will have to go back to the heating and quenching, hence will have to re-sharpen. Not to mention the danger of the blade being brittle, O-1 is quite able to break itself with internal stresses if left untemptered after it has been quenched to full hardness (though not much of a danger on simple torch hardened steel)

Thanks Chris,

After re-reading my message, I wasn't too clear...lol. The knife I'm just working on has a squared off edge on the spine, and for whatever reason it will not produce many sparks off a swedish firesteel (the type you can use a hacksaw blade with) The knife was only shaped, sharpened and polished for a project I'm working on, and has no tempering or quenching done yet. Just virgin 01 steel so far! Thanks for the info on the rest of the post though! Quite informative

Cheers
~mike

 

[C_Claycomb]

Ahhh. All is clearer

Spheroidised O-1 is very soft stuff. I wouldn't expect it to do much of anything on a ferro rod. It should be a different story when you quench it. Go for a full, rather than edge quench if you want the most sparks.

 

[stone]

Thanks for the advice Chris I'll do just that...

Sorry for the thread hijacking Spacemonkey

 

[Spacemonkey]

Sorry for the thread hijacking Spacemonkey

Hey, no probs, I do enough of that myself...

Well I took the Helle out in the sticks for the weekend and found three things.

1, It is a very sharp and useful tool straight from the box and is very easy to manage for all your campcraft carving requirements.

2, Making sparks from the firesteel using the tip only is possible and quite easy really. No real problems there and blazing fires did result from cotton wool and a little inner tube for the damp conditions that Dartmoor specialises in...

3, That it is a damned beautiful knife and i still can't believe it is so cheap...

 

[demographic]

Hey, no probs, I do enough of that myself...

Well I took the Helle out in the sticks for the weekend and found three things.

1, It is a very sharp and useful tool straight from the box and is very easy to manage for all your campcraft carving requirements.

2, Making sparks from the firesteel using the tip only is possible and quite easy really. No real problems there and blazing fires did result from cotton wool and a little inner tube for the damp conditions that Dartmoor specialises in...

3, That it is a damned beautiful knife and i still can't believe it is so cheap...

I have never tried using a piece of 18/8 stainless (the sdame steel as the outer layers of your Helle) with a firesteel but as I have worked with the metal when welding I do know that it's very soft unless it's work hardened so perhaps that affects it

For the weight of a car key I would just use the bit of metal that the swedish firesteel comes with.

 

[wolf]

ive had no problem producing sparks with my helle folken kniven.

[

 

[laurens ch]

wolf is your helle just plain sanvik or the laminated stuff

 

[Hoodoo]

Pretty common complaint with Helle laminated blades.