Snugpak fail in the New Forest and knife talk

[darrenleroy]

I was out on Friday night under a clear starry sky in the New Forest. I was on a Thermarest Neo-Air, under a tarp with one end closed, wearing long johns, a merino undershirt, a fleece jumper and a hat, in my Snugpak Elite 3. The temperature was, I estimate somewhere between six and three degrees celsius at around 3am.

Granted I had the baffles open which makes the bag roomier and more prone to leak heat, but I got cold. Not enough to shiver but enough to wake up and have to turn over. Snugpak claim the Elite 3 says it is warm down to -5. Is this only if the baffles are closed and the user is wearing lots of clothing?

I was a bit disappointed as I'd heard only good things about this bag. Next time I will layer up some more and maybe substitute my flimsy Neo-Air for a warmer Exped Down Mat. What do others think?

In the pub on Saturday after a hike me and my brother got talking to four scent layers for the local hunt. The lead guy was a bit suspicious of us asking all sorts of questions (just genuine curiosity about a new form of field sport) until I showed him a pic on my phone of a deer I shot in Knoydart. He said they have to be careful because hunt saboteurs and people from the League Against Cruel Sports try to make life difficult for the local hunts. Anyway, I had my Mora Clipper folded up in my jumper because, despite some locals wearing their knives on their belts, I thought it best to keep it hidden away just to be extra safe as I was a stranger.

The guy I was talking to managed to knock the jumper off the mantel piece and the knife fell out. He picked it up and after a tiny embarrassed silence the bar man, a young lad, said 'I've got one of those. Great knives.' And then someone else said, 'I've got this in stainless steel. Holds a nice edge.' We went on to have a discussion about carrying knives and they all agreed that if it's carried in context there's never any problem with the police around their area. The lead scent layer bought me and my brother a pint (it helped we all supported the same football team!) and an old boy kept forcing snuff onto us. A great, interesting and unexpected night with some genuine, friendly locals keen to discuss their sport.

 

[Large Sack]

All my opinion, but I would say that having the baffle extended would have made some difference, even if purely because there would have been more volume to heat.

However, and this is my real cruncher, I have never slept well in cold weather in any bag that has stated that it is good for temps down to circa 0 degrees (I include down to about -5). I have only slept well in bags/systems that go well below those figures (circa -15/-20) in colder weather, purely as I don't believe any bumf ever issued with the manufacturers spec and now always choose something well below what I think I might need.

FYI I now use the US Tennier Inc set up and have slept well for the last year. Prior to that I had a great Nanok bag, but that died, sadly, in a fire.

Further to this I also reckon that any bag under £60-£70 commercially available will be not much more than a two/three season bag tops, regardless of its claims.

Cheers
Sack

 

[Mesquite]

With regards to Snugpacks sleeping bag ratings the formula they use for working it out is based on how much sleep a 24 year old male sharing a tent with a similar person would get at a set temperature.

So if you're on your own in the open or partialy covered by a tarp it's going to be lower than advertised

 

[Large Sack]

With regards to Snugpacks sleeping bag ratings the formula they use for working it out is based on how much sleep a 24 year old male sharing a tent with a similar person would get at a set temperature.

So if you're on your own in the open or partialy covered by a tarp it's going to be lower than advertised

And bearing in mind the target market for most of Snugpaks bags, that would make a lot of sense.

 

[havocsdad]

Glad you had a great time in my neck of the woods. Can imagine which pub you were at!

 

[BillyBlade]

Snugpak have long had a rep for being a bit optimistic with their ratings. Never had one, so cant comment, but it does seem you've went some way to proving that legend.

As for the knives, seems like you met some good common sense people. Thats beyond rare these days!

 

[The Lord Poncho]

I have that same bag, and tend to use it with the baffle extended as well. Never had a problem year round (but i sleep with my clothes on), and i always use it with a bivi bag. To be honest, i wouldn't think changing your sleeping mat would make much difference. Shutting the extendable baffle probably would.

If you didn't have a bivi bag, possibly any wind may have made a difference?

 

[salad]

people sleep well at different temps, for example I am a warm sleeper so I normally make sure that the temp ratings on the sleeping bags I use go down to far lower temperatures than I expect the outside temperature to be. (if that makes sense ) . It sounds like it may be the same for you, if you are the sort who still likes a duvet at home in the summer and your missus is telling you that she does not know how you sleep with that on in this heat then you defiantly are

 

[jackcbr]

Never had a problem with them myself. Was out the other weekend a temps were below +6C over night. I was slung in my hammock with a Thermorest, no bivi bag in just a long sleve T shirt and boxers and was quiet snug. I find the less I wear the warmer the bag gets. Maybe something to do with my body heat warming up the bags filling and forming an air gap? Also found this on their Website about the baffles

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The bag boasts all the features of traditional sleeping bags but the jumbo zip baffle can be opened out to give much more room when needed. The extra space within the bag allows more air to move around keeping the bag cooler.[/FONT]

But I tend to be warm in bed anyway

 

[darrenleroy]

With regards to Snugpacks sleeping bag ratings the formula they use for working it out is based on how much sleep a 24 year old male sharing a tent with a similar person would get at a set temperature.

So if you're on your own in the open or partialy covered by a tarp it's going to be lower than advertised

I have looked at the Snugpak website and have never seen this formula. Thanks for pointing that out. Do you know where it is on the Snugpak site because I think it should be more easily found?

Next time I'll try the baffles closed and another layer on my legs over my long johns. Also I was under a tarp which would be colder than a tent by a couple of degrees, especially allowing for wind convection.

 

[darrenleroy]

I have that same bag, and tend to use it with the baffle extended as well. Never had a problem year round (but i sleep with my clothes on), and i always use it with a bivi bag. To be honest, i wouldn't think changing your sleeping mat would make much difference. Shutting the extendable baffle probably would.

If you didn't have a bivi bag, possibly any wind may have made a difference?

I'm sure the bivi bag and a full set of clothes would make all the different. Also I was under a tarp rather than in a sealed tent. I'm also not overweight so don't have any of my own extra insulation (not that you are LP, as it's clear from your pic!). There wasn't any wind but convection will still play a part in heat loss.

This is all part of bushcraft though; learning the extent of your kit's performance and how best to deal with the elements. Earlier this summer just gone I was a bit warm in my bag but it poured with rain for two nights and my bag coped with a few drops of water and the DD Tarp was excellent at keeping the deluge out so I now know I can trust those two bits of kit in the wet.

 

[Mesquite]

I have looked at the Snugpak website and have never seen this formula. Thanks for pointing that out. Do you know where it is on the Snugpak site because I think it should be more easily found?

Next time I'll try the baffles closed and another layer on my legs over my long johns. Also I was under a tarp which would be colder than a tent by a couple of degrees, especially allowing for wind convection.

I was told that by one of their reps at the outdoor show a couple or 3 years ago when I was discussing sleeping bags with them. I've since seen it on the web but I can't find where I saw it.

I should have added the 24 yo is also about 11.5 stone so if you're older or female you need to look to a slightly higher rating.

 

[ged]

I think most manufacturers are optimistic with their ratings. I don't think that should come as a surprise to anyone, they are after all just selling a product in the face of stiff competition.

Another couple of things worth thinking about are how old the bag is, and how it has been treated during its life. The insulation in all sleeping bags is the same material. It's called air. The filling in the sleeping bag is just something to trap as much air as possible and keep it from moving about, because when it moves about it takes heat along with it. So the sleeping bag filling needs to 'loft', that is it needs to be all fluffy and light -- not a solid flat lump. If you store the bag tightly packed it will tend to take longer to loft when you unpack it, and ultimately it may not be able to loft as well as a similar bag which has for example been stored in a large sack. Sorry. After a lot of use the filling will start to break up and lose some of its loft. Then your four season bag will become a three season bag, and so on. How quickly this happens depends on how much you use it, how you care for it, what the filling is etc. and probably half a dozen other things.

Generally I think that a couple of -10 degree bags are a lot warmer than a -20 degree bag. That's because the inside of the bag is expected to be at around +10 to +20 degrees, not zero. So a couple of cheap bags might be a lot warmer than one that's twice the price of the cheap ones. More flexible too, if you have a summer bag and a three season bag you have three possible combinations.

As has been mentioned, a bivvy bag adds quite a bit of comfort, and it isn't just the extra insulation. It will be more windproof than a sleeping bag, and I find that if it breathes water vapour it keeps the outer shell of my sleeping bag a lot drier, especially around my feet, because the moisture from my sweat goes out through the bivvy bag and seems to evaporate from the surface of a bivvy bag a lot more readily than from the sleeping bag. I haven't yet figured out why that should be.

The of course there's the ultimate comfort-giver, the hot water bottle.
In a sleeping bag, a hot water bottle is IMHO a lot more effective than e.g. an extra blanket. It's probably lighter to carry and it's certainly a lot cheaper than even an inexpensive sleeping bag. You can fill it with warm water or hot water, or not at all, depending on the temperature. You can wrap damp clothes around it to dry them very quickly. You can wash with the water in the morning. All in all, a hot water bottle has a lot going for it. But (unless it's a stoneware one) make sure to replace it at least every couple of years, waking up in a wet sleeping bag would be unpleasant.

Oh, I forgot -- check that you're comparing like with like. There's a big difference between the temperature that the bag will allow you to sleep in comfort, and the temperature at which it might just about keep you alive.

 

[darrenleroy]

I think most manufacturers are optimistic with their ratings. I don't think that should come as a surprise to anyone, they are after all just selling a product in the face of stiff competition.

Another couple of things worth thinking about are how old the bag is, and how it has been treated during its life. The insulation in all sleeping bags is the same material. It's called air. The filling in the sleeping bag is just something to trap as much air as possible and keep it from moving about, because when it moves about it takes heat along with it. So the sleeping bag filling needs to 'loft', that is it needs to be all fluffy and light -- not a solid flat lump. If you store the bag tightly packed it will tend to take longer to loft when you unpack it, and ultimately it may not be able to loft as well as a similar bag which has for example been stored in a large sack. Sorry. After a lot of use the filling will start to break up and lose some of its loft. Then your four season bag will become a three season bag, and so on. How quickly this happens depends on how much you use it, how you care for it, what the filling is etc. and probably half a dozen other things.

- I always keep my bag unpacked in the loft and it's only been used twice. But that's a good point.

Generally I think that a couple of -10 degree bags are a lot warmer than a -20 degree bag. That's because the inside of the bag is expected to be at around +10 to +20 degrees, not zero. So a couple of cheap bags might be a lot warmer than one that's twice the price of the cheap ones. More flexible too, if you have a summer bag and a three season bag you have three possible combinations.

- If I do a winter camp I will take my two season bag along as well and I think this, with the extra clothing and an Exped down mat should do the trick. Can't wait now!

As has been mentioned, a bivvy bag adds quite a bit of comfort, and it isn't just the extra insulation. It will be more windproof than a sleeping bag, and I find that if it breathes water vapour it keeps the outer shell of my sleeping bag a lot drier, especially around my feet, because the moisture from my sweat goes out through the bivvy bag and seems to evaporate from the surface of a bivvy bag a lot more readily than from the sleeping bag. I haven't yet figured out why that should be.

The of course there's the ultimate comfort-giver, the hot water bottle.
In a sleeping bag, a hot water bottle is IMHO a lot more effective than e.g. an extra blanket. It's probably lighter to carry and it's certainly a lot cheaper than even an inexpensive sleeping bag. You can fill it with warm water or hot water, or not at all, depending on the temperature. You can wrap damp clothes around it to dry them very quickly. You can wash with the water in the morning. All in all, a hot water bottle has a lot going for it. But (unless it's a stoneware one) make sure to replace it at least every couple of years, waking up in a wet sleeping bag would be unpleasant.

- I use my Nalgene style bottle and put it in a sock.

 

[John Fenna]

I have yet to have a problem with Snugpak and I find their rating pretty near the mark - if the bags are in good order, well stored, fully done up etc as mentioned - but then I sleep warm at the best of times.
My wife is a cold blooded individual and could be cold in a -25 bag when I was too hot in a -10 bag ...everyone is different

 

[darrenleroy]

Women always seem to be colder than men. Must be a body mass thing. I'm only 5' 7" and weigh 10 stone 10 lbs so I'm not a big bloke nor do I carry much in the way in extra weight. I'm gonna grow a beard, Mr Fenna. It's the only way and no need for a balaclava then!

 

[oldtimer]

Jon Fenna makes a good point. My wife and I have identical bags (Rab 600) in the same tent I'll sleep warm but she will complain of cold below -5C. Were much the same age 70 but I'm bigger than her. Our younger son uses a two season bag all year, but he complains we overheat the house and doesn't wear a coat unless it is below freezing, but he works outdoors and we are retired academics. It must be hard for manufacturers to indicate temperature ratings. They can only be an indication when bags are going to be used in a range of conditions by different individuals. It'a a shame you feel let down by your bag: mine is a treasured and reliable friend.

 

[John Fenna]

Women always seem to be colder than men. Must be a body mass thing. I'm only 5' 7" and weigh 10 stone 10 lbs so I'm not a big bloke nor do I carry much in the way in extra weight. I'm gonna grow a beard, Mr Fenna. It's the only way and no need for a balaclava then!

Beard bedammed! - it the extra 6 stone of weight that insulates me!

 

[darrenleroy]

Beard bedammed! - it the extra 6 stone of weight that insulates me!

Purely for the possibility of a survival situation I'm sure!

 

[EdS]

Generally I think that a couple of -10 degree bags are a lot warmer than a -20 degree bag. That's because the inside of the bag is expected to be at around +10 to +20 degrees, not zero. So a couple of cheap bags might be a lot warmer than one that's twice the price of the cheap ones. More flexible too, if you have a summer bag and a three season bag you have three possible combinations.

As has been mentioned, a bivvy bag adds quite a bit of comfort, and it isn't just the extra insulation. It will be more windproof than a sleeping bag, and I find that if it breathes water vapour it keeps the outer shell of my sleeping bag a lot drier, especially around my feet, because the moisture from my sweat goes out through the bivvy bag and seems to evaporate from the surface of a bivvy bag a lot more readily than from the sleeping bag. I haven't yet figured out why that should be.

Except that unless you have a lot bigger outer bag or purpose made one (ie PHD combi) it prevents the inner bag from lofting properly. Now such an issue on synthetic bags but it is on down ones.