Re-wilding

[Doc]

I make no apology for bringing this subject up again, as last time someone raised it there was an interesting and well-informed debate.

Here in the UK, we have no wilderness – the imprint of man is apparent even in the highlands of Scotland. Thankfully we do have ‘wild country’ where there is a feeling of wildness, and the effect of man is less obvious. Most of these places are in Scotland, but they can also be found in the English and Welsh national parks, and also on much of our foreshore.

Roads are everywhere – a Scottish National Heritage survey found that we had relatively few areas more than 8km from a public road. They then recalculated areas more than 8km from any motorable road, public or private – only seven small areas in Scotland are that remote. John Rowlands described Cache lake as ‘protected by distance’ but very few lochs can make the same claim.

There is increasing interest in ‘re-wilding’ – restoring wilderness, and this is a very complex subject that is as much political as ecological. To restore things as they were, you have to decide what point in history you are going back to. In the ice age, much of the UK was glaciated, and obviously going back to that isn’t achievable or desirable.

Man discovered agriculture at the onset of the Neolithic, and much of the loss of forest happened since then – a lot of it was gone by the iron age. Over the past 3000 years we lost beaver, lynx and bear, and around 300 years ago the last wolf died.

I would love to see large scale ecological restoration in Scotland – by that I mean hundreds of square miles rather than thousands of acres, with self generating native forest, and beaver, lynx and wolf, perhaps bear forming a stable ecosystem and no motorised access whatsoever.

This simply won’t happen just now – there is not enough political; or public will for it, and there are certainly many hurdles. But, like grass growing through a crack in tarmac, I see some encouraging signs. Beavers to be reintroduced to Knapdale, restoration of Caledonian Forest in Glen Affric by Trees For life and the FC, the Carrifran forest project in the border country, and the Woodland Trust’s work in Glen Finglas.

It won’t happen in my time, but I do believe it’s coming yet for a’ that.

 

[saddle_tramp]

sounds cool, i always wanted to have a go at beaver trapping.

(that were a joke. . . before the hate mail starts)

 

[WoodWildling]

it would be difficult to go back to really truly wild places, and if we did half the worlds population wouldn't survive because thay would know how to lol.
i'm kinda assuming you mean going right back to before modern housing, transport, medicine etc because I believe thats the only to get the real wilderness back. Our modern lives intentionally (or not, who knows ) push nature away.
So I propose a glorious anarchaic uprising: BRING BACK THE WILD!!! :aargh4:

 

[Chips]

sounds cool, i always wanted to have a go at beaver trapping.

(that were a joke. . . before the hate mail starts)

I always fancied trapping beavers, meant to have very warm skins. If they get reintroduced and are present in reasonable numbers, I might.

 

[wicca]

There are some wild places in England still Doc. Friday and Saturday evenings in West Street, Brighton are reminiscent of the "Little Bighorn". :swordfigh

On a more serious note with regard to the re-introduction of 'wild' animals. I recall when wild boar were first coming to public attention in areas near where I live ( I believe they were initially escapees from commercial farms) there was uproar. That seems to have largely subsided now, so hopefully with any future plans for animals destined for more remote areas the programme, once underway would become generally accepted, barring of course the odd occasion when some dozy tourist got munched by a peckish Timber Wolf.

 

[Cobweb]

I'm for re-wilding all over, great fun and I wouldn't have to shave my legs any more!

Seriously, I don't think it will happen which is a shame. It would be nice to get back to the way it should be.
We need to save the rainforest first though, otherwise we'll suffocate to death

 

[In Wood]

It is a real political mine field re-wilding, just ask Paul Lister.

I would love to see native species re-introduced as they have more right to be here than over half the human population of this isle.

The government keep saying it won’t work, WHY? Look at Sweden, Canada, Poland etc etc, they have wild wolves, bears etc and it works, sadly now and again a careless victim wanders astray and falls foul of the savage beasts. Usually the answer is that the savage beasts kill the poor, defenceless creature as it “came into our territory and tipped over our garbage can.”

But mostly the natural creatures manage to survive without being killed by man.

The argument by the hikers and walkers that Paul cannot put up fences to keep them off his land as they have a “RIGHT” to be there, Whoa, hold on, yes you do but they have far more right than you do, besides I think there should be access onto / through the Alladale estate for walkers, as there is to wild places in Canada etc, but people entering need to know the risks, if they don’t take the correct precautions like keeping food sealed, out of reach, leave no litter, etc, then they are to blame should any harm come to one of the native creatures not the other way round.

There was a news item a few weeks back you may have seen where a Bear had wandered into a town looking for food and got its head stuck inside a jar. The solution……….they shot the bear dead as it had not eaten for days and was unwell. For god sake, why, a tranquiliser dart would have done the job, remove the jar, release and feed the poor thing.


Sorry, :sad6: I am going off topic.

Yes I am for re wilding, the sooner the better. We don’t own this earth it belongs nature and nature has only ever made one cock up in evolution and it walks on two legs and kills the very planet on which it lives.

 

[BigShot]

An interesting subject.

I'm glad that the re-wilding philosophy is a desire to return some remote areas to true wilderness, as opposed to some insane attempt to turn back the last few hundred to few thousand years of human progress.

In so far as returning to a system where there are apex predators, sef seeding native woodlands and so on - I am absolutely, completely and utterly FOR it.

I quite like the fact that there are now growing and varied attempts to undo some of the ecological screw-ups we've made in the past. For example, attempts to protect and even strengthen the dwindling population of red squirrels; the re-introduction of other native species, such as boar, and so on. I like that attitude. Rather than "we need to stop screwing things up" that attitude says "we need to fix those mistakes". It's a more positive approach and one I applaud and encourage.


As for Paul Lister... I read with interest the article about him in Bushcraft and Survival Skills Magazine. I thought it was VERY interesting that when asked about wild camping, he said he thought they might have some yurts set up for people to wild camp. I'm not sure if he just missed the point or what, but it struck me that his intentions for re-wilding are somewhat commercial, rather than (purely) ecological.
As for fences - he could put up fences to keep the "wild" animals on his land, which would prevent them wandering into towns where there would certainly be conflict with humans, without preventing public access through the cunning use of GATES. Haha. I can't help but think there's a certain level of wanting to restrict access to his land wrapped up in his re-wilding project. However, with the right approach, which would require no-littering, sealed-food and so on to be taken on board, his project and others that should follow (up to the hundreds of square miles as Doc says) I do believe re-wilding could be a huge success.

Either way - reinstating wild animals we've managed to wipe out is a fantastic idea and one I hope gains more momentum over the coming years.

 

[Chips]

Alladale appartently has a fully fenced in 500 acres, allegedly with 3! stiles. Not enough. Anyone know where the stiles are? After he closed down the alladale bothy, I have a desire for a wild camp inside his enclosure.

 

[w00dsmoke]

I'm no expert but having worked for SNH and for local authorities as a ranger and caring passionatley about my home land, I doubt very much this will ever happen. Read the Poyswer book on "The History of British Mammals" for inspiration! Politically it is too sensitive for most within agriculture to accept and then you have the ordinary person in the street to convince it's worthwhile. The sad fact is: most people don't give a hoot. What's the eveidence of this? Well ask any community worker or charity come to that, what level of support that they have to gain in order to break even each year before they can increase their support due to people just not continuing that support.

Depending on who you ask, it's between 5-15% loss of members/supporters per year for membership/charitable organisations with a few exceptions. Or if you want another example, ask anyone in a higth street anywhere in Scotland (except those in Dunbar!) and ask them who John Muir was and mostly you'll get by way of a response, "who?". That's one heck of a kick from post modernity.

I support trees for life and a few other charities and helped run a wildlife charity for years so like to think I have helped to increase the social capital of my country and I do have aq huge love for reintroductions and as you describe Doc an increase in wilderness but I fear it will never happen except on some moderatly sized islands (Mull)or estates as a tokenistic gesture.

At the moment we can't even introduce badgers to areas of Scotland where they were once prolific and have little chance of natural recolonisation even though that the causes of their local demise has gone...

I wish it was so different!

 

[johnnytheboy]

Aren't beavers great they are so soft.

But seriously there was a beaver pelt in the museum in chamber street and it was really soft, beaver dams are a great feature for cacthing fish.

I would at least like to see decidous trees planted around river and streams to discourage the acidity produced by pine trees in feeder streams that prevent recruitment of future generations of trout, it would be a start

 

[Chips]

Aren't beavers great they are so soft.

But seriously there was a beaver pelt in the museum in chamber street and it was really soft, beaver dams are a great feature for cacthing fish.

I would at least like to see decidous trees planted around river and streams to discourage the acidity produced by pine trees in feeder streams that prevent recruitment of future generations of trout, it would be a start

I thought most of the acidic was caused by peat bogs that are often in the same area as plantations?

 

[Prawnster]

I'm all for it.

However, I don't think there is enough room on our isles for bears! I wish it weren't so but I don't think this will go that far. Wolves would be fantastic, mind you no one would ever see them but just knowing they are there and finding their sign would be magical. There could be some sort of compensation scheme set up if they took live stock.
I think there is some sort of legal issue with keeping predators in a fenced area with a prey animal though, so that would have to be looked at if people are talking about a huge fenced reserve.
There definitely needs to be more wild places, I live in the north west of england slap bang between liverpool and manchester so if I want somewhere even remotely remote it's a two hour drive. That's just wrong I think. We have wrecked this once pleasant land.

 

[Chips]

I am sure we have space for bears. What do they eat mostly? I know they eat a lot of salmon, but what else? Do they eat lots of deer? Less deer would be very good for tree regeneration.

 

[johnnytheboy]

Chips it maybe in some areas, i have no experience of the peat bog scenario, every water course will be different i suppose. I do know allot of the venues i fish the better spawning burns have suffered from acidity they recon due to rotten pine needles etc. The acidity is either causing poor recruitment or making the trout move to other areas not as environmentally sound for the trouts purpose again causing poor recruitment. Planting of deciduous trees in the watercourse is mean't to help, and allot of angling groups have started this paln of action.

 

[Prawnster]

I am sure we have space for bears. What do they eat mostly? I know they eat a lot of salmon, but what else? Do they eat lots of deer? Less deer would be very good for tree regeneration.

I think the issue with bears would be that their behaviour towards man is very different to say wolves and lynx. The bears own curiosity and fearlessness would see it come into confrontation with people, usually with disastrous consequences for the bear. This happens in america all the time which is a country nowhere near as densely populated as britain.

 

[ZDP-189]

Mmm, beaver and beer....

 

[durulz]

An interesting subject.

I'm glad that the re-wilding philosophy is a desire to return some remote areas to true wilderness, as opposed to some insane attempt to turn back the last few hundred to few thousand years of human progress.

Here here.
The suggestion that we rewind to an imagined pre-industrial Golden Era is a bit rash. It sounds ideal with the thought of throwing off the shackles of industrial/medical/transport/technological breakthroughs. But I wonder if it would seem quite as appealing if you suddenly had a burst aneurism and wanted to get to hospital (with all its facilities) ASAP. That tincture of nettle and marjoram won't seem so appealing then.
That said, the idea of returning (relatively) large areas of the UK to a 'wild' or 'wilderness' state inhabited by natural species is a serious subject that must be given serious consideration by the population. But I also wonder what the effects or resettlement of the human population will have. Not on the individuals concerned so much, but on the environments they will have to move into.
I absolutely love the idea of re-wilding, but I suspect that as you look into it it gets more and more impractical. I think the UK is just too densely populated to start with.
A better plan of attack should be to preserve what areas already exist, however small.

 

[Doc]

There's a lot of issues raised.

Not many people live in the highland areas where re-wilding is proposed. This is because most of the residents were forcibly removed during the Clearances, which is still a raw wound here in Scotland. It does mean that any relocation of people from a proposed wilderness area would have to be done very sensitively.

I take the point about bears. I think salami tactics are appropriate. Beaver reintroductions have gone well elsewhere, if it is a success in Scotland then that could pave the way for lynx or wolf. The trouble with wolves particularly is that the decisions won't be made on the basis of scientific evidence. They will be influenced by generations of folk memories where the wolf is big and bad. In the USA people are not killed by wolves. Deaths from bears are rarer than death from lightning, and in many cases the deceased has contibuted to his own end.

The Alladale project is of great interest - I used to work nearby at Bonar Bridge. On one hand I am impressed with the owner for having vision, and putting his wealth behind it. He has also clearly got help from expert managers annd ecologists.

On the other hand, the access issue is very important to hillwalkers, and Scots in general. Free access is a longstanding tradition, now enshrined in law, and it is a fundamental freedom which should not be surrendered lightly. If one landowner can fence off his estate and exclude people, others could too. There are not enough stiles to allow access to his current enclosure. As I understand it, his future plans would restrict access to accompanied paying guests.

Wilderness restoration would have to be on a bigger scale than a single estate - a small scale project risks being seen as a safari park.

 

[Husky]

Since I'm not Brittish (although I did live my childhood years outside Maidenhead so I should get some extra creditpoints) I don't know how it is today but what is it that you wish to achieve with "re-wilding"?
Is it to restore a full, functional ecosystem, to restore the appearance of the land as it used to be or is it to remove the impact of human culture?
As I see it you can have beavers, bears, wolves and lynx without having to remove people or roads. Fences are easely made to hold wildlife but be completely passable for people but I may be missing the point.