I never get tired of saying this, but Knife crime is a Myth, made up by the media, year on year the figures remain either the same or falling. The only thing that is truly growing is the Fear of Knife crime
Not More Knife Law
- Thread starter entropydog
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Come along to the amazing Summer Moot (21st July - 2nd August), a festival of bushcrafting and camping in a beautiful woodland PLEASE CLICK HERE for more information.
I was going to ask you to quote some statistics but it's easier to look them up..The latest report I could find is only 10 days old.
Knife crime statistics - Commons Library Standard NotePublished 01 November 2011 | Standard notes SN04304Authors: Gavin BermanTopic: Crime, Crimes of violence, Offensive weapons
During the year to June 2011 there were approximately 32,000 recorded offences involving knives or other sharp instruments, accounting for 7% of selected offences. Recorded knife crime was 2% lower than it had been a year earlier.According to the British Crime Survey (BCS) in 2009/10 a knife was used in 6% of all BCS incidents of violence, similar to the previous year’s proportion.Over the year to the end of June 2011 there were 21,201 disposals given for possession of a knife or offensive weapon. Juveniles (aged 10-17) were the offenders in 19% of cases. The custody rate was 8% for juveniles and 24% for adultsA Court of Appeal judgement in May 2008 said that magistrates should normally sentence those convicted of knife crime possession offences at the top end of the range. Following this custody rates and average custodial sentence lengths have risen.NHS data suggests there were 4,643 people admitted to English hospitals in 2010/11 due to assault by a sharp object. The lowest level since 2002/03.
The whole report can be found here....
http://10.160.3.10:81/PIMS/Static F...ARY_OTHER_PAPERS/STANDARD_NOTE/snha-00330.pdf
Interesting.....
It's a shame the law confuses us and makes us doubt the legality of our innocently intended actions.
Now the section of law doesn't say anything about camping or outdoor hobbies not being a good enough reason to carry a bigger knife and leaves it to us to decide. So, with the interpretation left to us to decide then aslong as we aren't using it for a specifically illegal action then it is infact legal and of good reason to use and carry. No?
I was stopped by a policeman once and had a Stanley knife on my side. I had just finished some decorating work at a young friends house, the policeman actually stopped us because of my other friend who suffers from severe freidrichs ataxia and walks as if intoxicated. Now he asked my friend what he was on and after a quick explanation he apologised and chatted with us untill asking why I had the knife on me, I explained and it wasn't mentioned agin, we just chatted and parted ways.
Now I have heard a story that's my brothers friend told him. The guy had a picnic and left knife used to cut cake in his boot and after being stopped on the motorway by the police the next day with the cake covered knife still in his boot.
I don't know what the reason for being stopped were but they did find the knife and arrested him for having it.
They argued it should have been removed and by not being so was now a weapon, I don't know how the rest played out but probably a caution.
I do know someone personally who was searched and had drugs and a lock knife intended for 'self defence'. Being 15 and obviously a right plonker was given a warning and had his goodies confiscated and sent on his way.. This shocked me and made me question the strictness of some coppers.
Another person I know for some reason waved a lock knife (opened) in the face of a student when we were in school.
When the police turned up the next day and did the questioning they weren't bothered about what sort of knife it was but more so the idiotic act in which one was used. They confiscated the knife and the lad was expelled, no police record though. He even smoked a cigarette in the back of the policecar on his escorted ride home.
Shocked again.
I hope this helps.
Now the section of law doesn't say anything about camping or outdoor hobbies not being a good enough reason to carry a bigger knife and leaves it to us to decide. So, with the interpretation left to us to decide then aslong as we aren't using it for a specifically illegal action then it is infact legal and of good reason to use and carry. No?
I was stopped by a policeman once and had a Stanley knife on my side. I had just finished some decorating work at a young friends house, the policeman actually stopped us because of my other friend who suffers from severe freidrichs ataxia and walks as if intoxicated. Now he asked my friend what he was on and after a quick explanation he apologised and chatted with us untill asking why I had the knife on me, I explained and it wasn't mentioned agin, we just chatted and parted ways.
Now I have heard a story that's my brothers friend told him. The guy had a picnic and left knife used to cut cake in his boot and after being stopped on the motorway by the police the next day with the cake covered knife still in his boot.
I don't know what the reason for being stopped were but they did find the knife and arrested him for having it.
They argued it should have been removed and by not being so was now a weapon, I don't know how the rest played out but probably a caution.
I do know someone personally who was searched and had drugs and a lock knife intended for 'self defence'. Being 15 and obviously a right plonker was given a warning and had his goodies confiscated and sent on his way.. This shocked me and made me question the strictness of some coppers.
Another person I know for some reason waved a lock knife (opened) in the face of a student when we were in school.
When the police turned up the next day and did the questioning they weren't bothered about what sort of knife it was but more so the idiotic act in which one was used. They confiscated the knife and the lad was expelled, no police record though. He even smoked a cigarette in the back of the policecar on his escorted ride home.
Shocked again.
I hope this helps.
I often see the phrase that bushcrafting is not a reasonable excuse to carry a knife and I really don't get this??? If you are engaged in bushcraft or on your way to or from doing bushcraft then this is an entirely acceptable 'reasonable excuse' that falls within the generality usage clause, section 139, paragraph 4.
Paragraph 5 deals with another matter entirely and lists 3 examples of activities where you don't need a reasonable excuse as long as you're engaged in one of the three things listed.
As I understand the law, it is not saying we have to prove why we need a fixed/3"+ knife over a folding sub 3" in whatever activity we are doing just that if we are using something other than a 'pen knife' we need to have a reasonable excuse unless it is one of the three things listed in paragraph 5.
The law is clear to me except one thing, the term 'Public Place' and specifically the term 'have access' in paragraph 7. I seem to remember that the boot of a persons car is a public place, correct me if I am wrong, so to my thinking if this is so that basicly anywhere could be viewed as a Public place even private land which can be accessed by the public either trespassing or with permission?
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/33/section/139
Steve.
Paragraph 5 deals with another matter entirely and lists 3 examples of activities where you don't need a reasonable excuse as long as you're engaged in one of the three things listed.
As I understand the law, it is not saying we have to prove why we need a fixed/3"+ knife over a folding sub 3" in whatever activity we are doing just that if we are using something other than a 'pen knife' we need to have a reasonable excuse unless it is one of the three things listed in paragraph 5.
The law is clear to me except one thing, the term 'Public Place' and specifically the term 'have access' in paragraph 7. I seem to remember that the boot of a persons car is a public place, correct me if I am wrong, so to my thinking if this is so that basicly anywhere could be viewed as a Public place even private land which can be accessed by the public either trespassing or with permission?
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/33/section/139
Steve.
No, sorry. It's not a question of "I'm not doing anything illegal, so it must be legal", it's a question of "I'm doing something legal, so it isn't illegal". You see the difference? Your statement would allow you to carry a knife just because you feel like it - that in fact, is illegal. You need to actually have a purpose, be engaged in doing something or going to or from etc to justify possession.
Put simply, unless you are just about to do something, in the process of doing something or have just finished doing something that specifically requires a fixed blade or long blade knife, then possession of that knife is illegal.
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The definition of a Public Place in law is "Any place to which at the material time, the public are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise." In other words, if it's not secure private property,and anybody can enter or leave at will, it's a public place, even if you have to pay to enter.
The term "lawful authority" covers a wide range of circumstances, from armed soldiers to someone carrying out a contract for payment.
"Reasonable excuse" means that the act which allegedly contravenes the law is, in the cirumstances pertaining at the time, legal because the accused is carrying out a lawful activity, and that the alleged offence relates to some aspect of that activity which is essential to the pursuance of the activity.
In relation to knives, this means that if you are "camping" (a lawful activity) and intend to use a fire to cook on (also a lawful activity), then it is reasonable that you should carry a knife (or axe or machette) for the purpose of preparing wood for the fire, and a knife for the purpose of preparing the food to be cooked on the fire.
In the case of bushcraft, or any other outdoor activity, you would need to demonstrate to a court that you were camping, and using a fire, or were travelling to or from a place where you were planning to camp, or carry out a similar activity, and that the bladed tool was essential to the performance of the activity, to have a complete defence.
It is also an important point that you only have to prove your defence on the balance of probability, but the prosecution have to prove that your reason is false "beyond reasonable doubt". Imagine the look on the police officers face if, in the witness box, he is asked by your lawyer, "Tell me, Officer, what else was my client carrying at the time when you arrested my client?", and has to reply, "A tent, matches and a pan." He has just proved your defence for you!
Hope this helps.
Alan
The term "lawful authority" covers a wide range of circumstances, from armed soldiers to someone carrying out a contract for payment.
"Reasonable excuse" means that the act which allegedly contravenes the law is, in the cirumstances pertaining at the time, legal because the accused is carrying out a lawful activity, and that the alleged offence relates to some aspect of that activity which is essential to the pursuance of the activity.
In relation to knives, this means that if you are "camping" (a lawful activity) and intend to use a fire to cook on (also a lawful activity), then it is reasonable that you should carry a knife (or axe or machette) for the purpose of preparing wood for the fire, and a knife for the purpose of preparing the food to be cooked on the fire.
In the case of bushcraft, or any other outdoor activity, you would need to demonstrate to a court that you were camping, and using a fire, or were travelling to or from a place where you were planning to camp, or carry out a similar activity, and that the bladed tool was essential to the performance of the activity, to have a complete defence.
It is also an important point that you only have to prove your defence on the balance of probability, but the prosecution have to prove that your reason is false "beyond reasonable doubt". Imagine the look on the police officers face if, in the witness box, he is asked by your lawyer, "Tell me, Officer, what else was my client carrying at the time when you arrested my client?", and has to reply, "A tent, matches and a pan." He has just proved your defence for you!
Hope this helps.
Alan
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My interpretation of the law was refering to 'camping and outdoor hobbies' where a knife has a role (i.e bushcraft) and not just when and where we please, I thought it was more clear than that.
I don't think a section of law that isn't clear enough to give exact answers to the people is a good one and I think this because..
You're opinion of 'good reason' might not be the same as mine and possibly far different from a policeman who has the right to use his opinion to deem you to be breaking the law.
I can understand why there is confusion and it's partly due to the opinions of what is and is not 'good reason'.
It is very important to remember that a policeman doesn't decide you are 'guilty', only the courts can do that. A police officer can decide if there is reason to charge or caution you.
The law is grey, because situations and people are complex. It's simply not possible to devise a law that covers every single combination of circumstances, behaviour, etc.
The law is grey, because situations and people are complex. It's simply not possible to devise a law that covers every single combination of circumstances, behaviour, etc.
It is very important to remember that a policeman doesn't decide you are 'guilty', only the courts can do that. A police officer can decide if there is reason to charge or caution you.
The law is grey, because situations and people are complex. It's simply not possible to devise a law that covers every single combination of circumstances, behaviour, etc.
The law is grey, because situations and people are complex. It's simply not possible to devise a law that covers every single combination of circumstances, behaviour, etc.
Knife crime certainly isn't a myth, even if the numbers are falling. The idea of there being a great increase in knife crime might be a myth, but the 32000 reported offences and 4600 hospitalised people in the last 12 months that Johnboy's report refers to are certainly real.
I find the fact that there is just a 24% custody rate for adults and 8% for juveniles shocking, and the fact that 19% of these crimes are carried out by 10 to 17 year olds moreso. I know that judges need the freedom to award an appropriate sentence for the circumstances of the case at hand, but it looks very much like juveniles are not being punished for knife crime and growing up with still a low chance of a custodial sentence in later crimes - we are storing up a huge problem for ourselves in future years.
I find the fact that there is just a 24% custody rate for adults and 8% for juveniles shocking, and the fact that 19% of these crimes are carried out by 10 to 17 year olds moreso. I know that judges need the freedom to award an appropriate sentence for the circumstances of the case at hand, but it looks very much like juveniles are not being punished for knife crime and growing up with still a low chance of a custodial sentence in later crimes - we are storing up a huge problem for ourselves in future years.
And that's one of the problems.
An arrest or caution will appear on an enhanced or normal CRB check. A Police officer can make the decision to arrest and it may be based on very flimsy reasoning. Even if the CPS do not charge or they do and you are found not guilty you will still have a record which will most likely impact your future (forget any career which requires a clean CRB record).
No. A Criminal Records Bureau check is something you need for working with vulnerable people (a school caretaker, teacher, nurse, etc), so it is exempt from the rehabilitation of offenders act, which usually time-limits the requirement to declare spent convictions to an employer. Also, a police caution (where the police tell you off and let you go providing you confess to the offence) is not a conviction, so that could remain on your police record indefinitely. Either a conviction or a caution for say possession of an offensive weapon, would show up on a CRB check for the rest of your life.
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You cant just say "bushcraft" or "camping", you have to say exactly what you were doing that required the knife and explain why the knife was needed. For example, I was going camping m'lud is not a defence, because you dont need a knife to go camping. You have to say "I was on my way to a campsite, where it was my intention to stay overnight and to cook my meals over an open fire. The knife was needed to prepare my food and in the preparation and management of the fire itself" m'lud. You have to actually state the specific purpose and explain it in order to have a good reason. Simply saying outdoor activities, bushcraft or camping by themselves dont explain the need for a knife so are not good reasons to have one. You have to actually say ...it was my intention to carve a spoon, or it was my intention to use the knife to split wood for my campfire, or it was my intention to use the knife to prepare my meal - these are reasons for having a knife - "bushcraft" - isn't.
Remember, if you actually are going camping, the chances of you being stopped and asked to explain your possession of a knife are vanishingly small. For most police officers "I'm going camping" will probably be more than enough for them to ignore you. But if ever one decides it's not enough, the above type of explanation is what will be required to satisfy a court. In practice, you could probably go your entire life and never be asked to explain why you have a knife with you.
That's a good point, but as mentioned above, there is good reason why the law is so open ended. It's to allow police officers and the courts to use their discretion and decide when someone has a legitimate use for a knife and when someone is just being a scrote. Done properly, it works very well. If you want a list of exactly when you can use a knife legally, it would probably be a very long list and would probably have millions of legitimate uses missed off it. It's just not possible to define every possible set of circumstances where knife use is legitimate and where it is not. It would take volumes and volumes to cover the subject and it would still be inadequate.
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If you compare the legal text of the Swedish laws on "Dangerous items" SFS 1988:254 and the UK laws, they are somewhat similar in meaning.
The difference is that Sweden does not have a set blade length.
It is more focused on what, where, when and who.
§1 states that it is illegal to carry knifes and tools to be used to make harm in public places or schools.
The next sentence however says that the ban does not apply to possesion where it is clearly obvious, ie carpenters, military, scouts etc. AND if the possesion considering who, what, when, where is considered justifyable.
The law is also enforced differently depending on where you live. In the rural areas noone bothers if you carry a Mora on your leg (most swedish carpenter trousers nowadays have pockets on the right calf for one or two knives) or a sami knive dangling from your belt if you are dressed accordingly. They take the sharpened screwdriver from the junkie and the Rambo knife from the protester but not the hunting knife from the hunter. I always carry a Fallkniven U2 in my pocket and noone cares. I also dont have a "need" to have my fixed blade hanging on me when I am not in the woods. It likes to sit in my backpack, with my hatchet and other stuff.
The difference is that Sweden does not have a set blade length.
It is more focused on what, where, when and who.
§1 states that it is illegal to carry knifes and tools to be used to make harm in public places or schools.
The next sentence however says that the ban does not apply to possesion where it is clearly obvious, ie carpenters, military, scouts etc. AND if the possesion considering who, what, when, where is considered justifyable.
The law is also enforced differently depending on where you live. In the rural areas noone bothers if you carry a Mora on your leg (most swedish carpenter trousers nowadays have pockets on the right calf for one or two knives) or a sami knive dangling from your belt if you are dressed accordingly. They take the sharpened screwdriver from the junkie and the Rambo knife from the protester but not the hunting knife from the hunter. I always carry a Fallkniven U2 in my pocket and noone cares. I also dont have a "need" to have my fixed blade hanging on me when I am not in the woods. It likes to sit in my backpack, with my hatchet and other stuff.
There is a world of difference between a knife crime and a crime that involves a knife. Say someone broke in to your home. Burglary. But if hes carrying a knife, is that a knife crime? No that is Robbery.
Someone nicks your wallet in the Street, theft. But if they are carrying a knife, its still theft. Or if you are threatened or it is used then it is robbery.
The only reason such crime is reported as knife crime, is it is just another way of making headlines. Real crime is down year on year, "but lets invent a new way of sexing it up . If someone is committing a crime with or without a knife/blade/ sharp lets call it knife crime."
The only knife crime I can see, is a result of the new policing whereby carrying a knife, is now a crime.
The 4600 people injured by knives/sharp implement figure has been extrapolated from NHS figures. Which means theyve taken the data from ten NHS hospitals with over 300,000 admittances per year, and an A&E Department. And extrapolated their data to cover the whole of England and Wales. I think you will find that most of the crimes committed were assault or robbery or domestic or attempted murder, the use of a sharp implement was secondary to the nature of the crime.
I notice that they do not list the sharps involved but I can guess why, it simpler for the papers and politicians to say knife rather than weapons of opportunity which will be, for the most part, beer glasses, broken bottles, broken snooker cues, well ahead of butter/steak knives and the like.
My final point is if you look at the figures published for parliament recently you will see that there is a sharp rise in the level of people arrested for knife crime i.e. possession of a article with a sharp blade and or point. For years it was roughly 0.01 to 0.2% then suddenly there was a massive increase in the reported figures. Anyone want to guess why .? Before 1996 almost nothing after 1996 a tenfold rise. the following ten or so years it went from 0.2 percent to 18%
They made it a crime to carry a pointed or bladed article in a public place or school. (Criminal Justice Act 1988 S.139A (1)(5)(a) as added by Offensive Weapons Act 1996 S.4(1)).
hmmm would be interested to know what the legality of that stop and search was....
The answer then is not to accept it - by doing so you are admiting you have done something wrong just like pleading guilty in court
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Police will now not be allowed to use the power unless they "reasonably suspect" a person of being a terrorist.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10555430
The power to stop and search someone under Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000 no longer exists.
Police officers continue to have the power to stop and search anyone who they reasonably suspect to be a terrorist under Section 43 of the Terrorism Act.
http://www.met.police.uk/about/photography.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10555430
The power to stop and search someone under Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000 no longer exists.
Police officers continue to have the power to stop and search anyone who they reasonably suspect to be a terrorist under Section 43 of the Terrorism Act.
http://www.met.police.uk/about/photography.htm
Unless you are actually guilty obviously. A caution for possession of a bladed article contrary to section 139, is much better than a conviction for it. Just like in court, there are times when pleading guilty is the intelligent thing to do - getting caught in town with an opinel in your pocket [without a good reason] for example.
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