Newbie Rucksack Questions

[darrenleroy]

Hello all,

After 35 years in the urban jungle I've recently been introduced, via a wild camping trip to the New Forest with an experienced woodsman, the massive quiet joys of the great outdoors.

Since then I've taken a couple of trips to Snowdonia, one to Knoydart in Scotland and am planning a canoe trip down the Wye in the summer. I understand but a fraction of what some of the guys are posting on this site but I'm very grateful for the crumbs from the forum tables.

I want to update my kit as my rucksack is a 25 year old Karrimor Jaguar 65 litre and would like to get some input from the posters here.

I have been looking at the Karrimor SF 60-100 and the 75 as they both come highly recommended on BCUK by the forum members but I have some questions I wonder anyone could answer.

I am 5'7". I like lugging my kit on my back and feel something around the 70 litre mark rucksack would be a good compromise between volume and bulk. I certainly don't need anything bigger. I already have a little day sack for bimbling. I really only want to buy one rucksack that will hopefully last me another 25 years!

What is more comfortable to carry: the SF 60-100 or the 75? I understand the 60-100 has an external frame and the 75 has an internal. Is this correct and does anyone have knowledge of using both.

Would anyone recommend foregoing the expense of a Karrimor SF product for a standard army rucksack instead? Is there such a thing? And who exactly makes this?

Is it Web-tex or is this, like, Karrimor a deluxe version of the standard army issue sack. What about the JetFlow? And why is there such a disparity of price between the Bergens I've mentioned?

I know it's a lot of questions but I really want to make the right choice.

All the best,

Darren

 

[darrenleroy]

From reading around the forums I'm sensing Web-tex isn't as appreciated.

 

[MartinK9]

I'm old and set in my ways, I have had the same Berghaus Vulcan Bergen coming up for a quater of a century and have had no problems with it at all, it has served me well and only now is it showing signs of it's age.

I'm 5'8" and mines a size 2.

 

[Shewie]

I really like my Sabres and would recommend them to anyone. Some don't like all the straps but they can be shortened or removed if they're a problem, personally I don't mind them. Also there are some comments about the newer production standards but again I think they're solid enough and I've never had any problems with them.
There are some good surplus alternatives to try, the Berghaus Vulcan is probably the one to look at first. I tried a Vulcan for a while but once I tested the Sabre I switched immediately.
Lowe Alpine also make a couple but I think they're in DPM which might be an issue ?

Try before you buy though if you can, it makes so much sense with a pack.

Give the Webtex packs a wide berth

What sort of kit will you be carrying ?

 

[fletch]

ok, i really dont know what people have against the webtext PCLE clone. Aside from it have IR reflective issues (not an issue unless your a soldier or happen to be in the business of avoiding russian soldiers equiped with night visiosn) there is not really anything wrong with them.

If your looking for a hard wearing,capacious and reliable pack then have a look at webtex (or PLCE bergen).

I've had my webtex bergen for about 4 years and it has been on 3 canoe expeditions in france (wet all the time), several canoe trips in scotland (again pretty much wet all the time from being in the bottom of a canoe). The Arctic twice on various survival courses, countless weeks in the woods in the UK, a month backpacking around india and now it is sitting beside me in Guatemala after 3 months backpacking around central america.

The *only*issue i have had is that the cotton zip tag thing (the bit of cloth tied to the zip) disappeared somewhere on the last boat/van/truck/bus ride whilst moving through guatemala. cosmetic problem only and fixed in a bout 15 seconds with 4 inches of paracord.

It's a great pack and cheap too. If money grows on tree's where you live then by all means look at the karimor range, they are very good pack indeed but for the extra cost....just get a webtext or ex army PLCE.

It's got loads of loops and a large one for tucking your axe into, plenty of clips etc for attaching other plce kit to it. It is 100 % compatible with modular PLCE options. I've just found a nice resting place for my machete which fit's snugly between the side pouch and main bag and has a webbing lock off strap there for the waist loop of my sheath to ensure it does nto fall out.

The shoulder and waste straps are massively adjustable and thoughtfully seated providing a very good yoke system for heavy weight..

not sure why everyone hates webtex so much.

 

[johnboy]

Hello all,

After 35 years in the urban jungle I've recently been introduced, via a wild camping trip to the New Forest with an experienced woodsman, the massive quiet joys of the great outdoors.

Since then I've taken a couple of trips to Snowdonia, one to Knoydart in Scotland and am planning a canoe trip down the Wye in the summer. I understand but a fraction of what some of the guys are posting on this site but I'm very grateful for the crumbs from the forum tables.

I want to update my kit as my rucksack is a 25 year old Karrimor Jaguar 65 litre and would like to get some input from the posters here.

I have been looking at the Karrimor SF 60-100 and the 75 as they both come highly recommended on BCUK by the forum members but I have some questions I wonder anyone could answer.

I am 5'7". I like lugging my kit on my back and feel something around the 70 litre mark rucksack would be a good compromise between volume and bulk. I certainly don't need anything bigger. I already have a little day sack for bimbling. I really only want to buy one rucksack that will hopefully last me another 25 years!

What is more comfortable to carry: the SF 60-100 or the 75? I understand the 60-100 has an external frame and the 75 has an internal. Is this correct and does anyone have knowledge of using both.

Would anyone recommend foregoing the expense of a Karrimor SF product for a standard army rucksack instead? Is there such a thing? And who exactly makes this?

Is it Web-tex or is this, like, Karrimor a deluxe version of the standard army issue sack. What about the JetFlow? And why is there such a disparity of price between the Bergens I've mentioned?

I know it's a lot of questions but I really want to make the right choice.

All the best,

Darren

Hi Darren and welcome to the forum and congratulations on getting into the outdoors..

The best rucksack / bergen for you is the one that fits you the best.

It could be a Karrimor Sabre or it could be a Berghaus Vulcan or it could be a Webtex PLCE Bergen copy or the Army issue bergen..

You need a rucksack that fits your back length correctly and shares the weight between the hip belt and the shoulder straps.. 10 minutes on google will produce a heap of information on this.

The basics are the hip belt sits slightly above your hips ( not around your stomach) and allows the transfer of the majority of the weight of the loaded Bergen to your hips and pelvis area. Having a waist belt up around your stomach is no good at all for getting the weight to load bear on your hips.

The problem with a lot of Bergens oirented for 'Military' use is they can have very short back lengths or fixed back lengths which stops them fitting optimally or they have no waistbelt at all. In the military more often than not you're wearing 'webbing' so you want the 'Bergen' to sit above all of the pouches and other kit around your waist. So a short back length is seen as a useful thing to have.

For 99.9% of outdoor use a well fitting Bergen is what you want especially if you're loading it up and carrying for a reasonable distance.

Basically you're rucksack choice will come down to a Fixed back length or Adjustable back length.

Common 'Bushcraft' Bergens ( there are others):

Fixed back length one size only offered:

Karrimor Sabre 45
Karrimor Sabre 75
Karrimor Predator Patrol 45
Karrimor Predator Tecmec 50

Fixed back length Size choices offered:

Berghaus Vulcan 4 sizes
Webtex PLCE
Issue PLCE * Short and long only


Adjustable Back Length:

Karrimor Sabre 60-100
Karrimor Sabre 80-130
Lowe Alpine Sting / Stingray
Lowe Alpine Saracen


Personally I'd look for fit and comfort of a bergen over a particular brand if you do not mind brighter colours your choice expands 10 fold. In reality trying to give specific advice on fit via a forum on fit is nigh on impossible.

I really like my Vulcan as it fits me well. Other folk will like Sabre 75's, Webtex etc..

You have to go and try a few on..

Webtex gets a bad reputation mainly because they produce copies of military kit (the Webtex PLCE 'bergen' is a copy of the army issue Bergen which is a detuned copy of a rucksack Berghaus used to make called the Crusader) that when subjected to hard military use fails very quickly. Argueably if you're not using it in that environment it may last longer. Generally with outdoor kit you pay your money you take your choice.

I personally don't have a downer on the Webtex Rucksacks but you can often get the 'real thing' for similar outlay via ebay etc..

Hope this helps...

 

[Kerne]

I want to update my kit as my rucksack is a 25 year old Karrimor Jaguar 65 litre and would like to get some input from the posters here.

All the best,

Darren

I have a 25 year old Karrimor Jaguar 65 and I still use it loads but especially when weight isn't an issue (I have an ultra-light Vapour Trail for lightweight stuff) It is rugged and capacious and I like the way it is split into compartments/pockets. If I am going anywhere where I don't have to carry my pack long distances on a daily basis, this is the one I choose. So, if it ain't broke...

 

[gordonmac]

I am 5'7". I like lugging my kit on my back and feel something around the 70 litre mark rucksack would be a good compromise between volume and bulk. I certainly don't need anything bigger. I already have a little day sack for bimbling. I really only want to buy one rucksack that will hopefully last me another 25 years!

Hi Darren,

I'm about the same height as you and recently bought a Deuter Aircontact Pro 60 + 15 (http://www.deuter.com/en/products/33827_AircontactPRO60u15_470_07_ENG.php). I had it out at the weekend for the first time and found it very comfortable after a tiny bit of fiddling around with the adjustable back system. The load I was carrying was around 16 kilos (35 pounds), not the heaviest load really, but was a good enough indicator of the comfort of this bag.

One of its selling points for me was the front opening (it opens from the top, too), which allows you to easily get at stuff lower down in the pack without having to burrow down from the top.

Anyway, best of luck with whatever you choose

 

[big_swede]

There is no need whatsoever for a military pack in the civilian life. If it's because it's tougher than an ordinary pack your doing something wrong. If you can't handle a such a simple item as a rucksack without breaking it you shouldn't be allowed anything near anything as dexterity challenging as a knife. Or a fire.

If you want one because you want a green one, or you wanna look like some paramilitary or if it's because RM has one, then that's okay. We all like to pretend. But you don't really need it.

What the BCUK people recommend is not the same thing as it's the best. There is a strong 'herd' mentality going on here.

If I were you I would get a crux pack in gunmetal and just concentrate on getting out there.

 

[johnboy]

There is no need whatsoever for a military pack in the civilian life. If it's because it's tougher than an ordinary pack your doing something wrong. If you can't handle a such a simple item as a rucksack without breaking it you shouldn't be allowed anything near anything as dexterity challenging as a knife. Or a fire.

If you want one because you want a green one, or you wanna look like some paramilitary or if it's because RM has one, then that's okay. We all like to pretend. But you don't really need it.

What the BCUK people recommend is not the same thing as it's the best. There is a strong 'herd' mentality going on here.

If I were you I would get a crux pack in gunmetal and just concentrate on getting out there.

Say what you really think BS

 

[Shewie]

There is no need whatsoever for a military pack in the civilian life. If it's because it's tougher than an ordinary pack your doing something wrong. If you can't handle a such a simple item as a rucksack without breaking it you shouldn't be allowed anything near anything as dexterity challenging as a knife. Or a fire.

If you want one because you want a green one, or you wanna look like some paramilitary or if it's because RM has one, then that's okay. We all like to pretend. But you don't really need it.

What the BCUK people recommend is not the same thing as it's the best. There is a strong 'herd' mentality going on here.

If I were you I would get a crux pack in gunmetal and just concentrate on getting out there.

okenest: Brilliant response

Couldn't we say the same about every aspect of our hobby, it's all pretend none of it necessary.

Nowt wrong with playing soldiers.

 

[bushwacker bob]

I also use a Karrimor jaguar but its not as new as yours. Its works fine for me.
If it aint broke......

 

[kai055]

http://www.britishmilitarysurplus.co.uk/shopscr87.html

got mine from here a couple of years ago and use it all the time

 

[darrenleroy]

Thanks for the ongoing advice.

Shewie: I'll be carrying kit for bushcraft - small tent and or bivvy bag, sleep mat, sleep bag, clothes, cutting tool, mess tin etc, but I also want to do feel comfortable hiking for up to 15 miles a day. I think around 70 litres should cover this.

Fletch: Does the Web-Tex PLCE waist strap actually reach the waist? Others have said it's designed to fit around webbing so sits higher up. I really need a good waist strap to support and spread the load as I'm a weakling.

Johnboy: brilliant synopsis. Thanks.

Gordonmac and Big Swede: I guess it's easy to get sucked into the toy soldiers thing. I am attracted to the muted colours of army sacks because they tend to blend in with the surroundings, and they've been proven in the field so to speak, but I guess I shouldn't rule out any bag. Comfort is the key.

If money were no object I'd be looking at the Berghaus or Karrimor SF Bergens.
For lightness I like the sound of the Crux Pack or Deuter Air Contact Pro

I think I need to get to some shops and start trying them on...

 

[big_swede]

Gordonmac and Big Swede: I guess it's easy to get sucked into the toy soldiers thing. I am attracted to the muted colours of army sacks because they tend to blend in with the surroundings, and they've been proven in the field so to speak, but I guess I shouldn't rule out any bag. Comfort is the key.

If money were no object I'd be looking at the Berghaus or Karrimor SF Bergens.
For lightness I like the sound of the Crux Pack or Deuter Air Contact Pro

I think I need to get to some shops and start trying them on...

What I look for in a rucksack is mainly simplicity, multiple usage and light weight. It has taken my some 20 years of outdoors activities to reach this conclusion. I avoid all extra pockets and features, I rarely use them. Some do, mind you. For instance, making a day pack out of side pockets is something I have never ever done, or even felt the need of although I have had packs with this feature. I think sidepockets are just in the way. The same can be said of extra straps and strap points. I rarely use them. But it was just recently that I have taken this stance. If you go back thru my posts you will see that I was very fond of army frame packs. You can see the 'what to do in sweden when it's too cold to paddle' thread in out and about section to see that I still use them on occations when my other packs are too small. But I just can't justify the extra weight when it's not needed. Light is right, especially if you do this as a recreational activity. But some guys and gals still prefer the army lookalike drill, and enjoy telling other people about their struggles, in the pub. For some people the suffering is the goal, or so it seems.

Of course there are several ways we all go about outdoors activities, none is really wrong, (just stoopid.. ). Almost all my outings are foot based, that is I carry my stuff. And since I want to enjoy the outdoors as much as possible I try to reduce the strain of walking. There is an easy way to do this, ease your burden. It took me a lot of years to understand that no carrying system in the world is worth its weight. Carrying is made easier by lighten your load, not by any carrying systems. Of course the easiest way of lighten your load is by omitting stuff you don't really need. This is very dependent on what land your planning on travelling through. I live in Sweden with a right to roam that is very liberal compared to the English, Welsh and even Scottish ones. I would never carry a entrenching tool for instance, since it's much easier to make a digging stick whenever I need one. Likewise I wouldn't carry a fire box or similar stuff, since I don't need it, I don't even use a stove most of the time, the same with tents. I don't bother. So this is not a UL gospel, it's just a philosophy of carrying less by knowing how to use your surroundings, and enjoy yourself in the mean time. On the plus side I can, if I like, travel further and faster than if I was loaded like a mule.

It's not a coincidence that most outdoors people don't use army items any more. It's a shame though that the choice of colours in the civilian outdoors business is almost always limited to very bright colours.

 

[big_swede]

Say what you really think BS

What do you mean JB?

 

[fletch]

Thanks for the ongoing advice.

Fletch: Does the Web-Tex PLCE waist strap actually reach the waist? Others have said it's designed to fit around webbing so sits higher up. I really need a good waist strap to support and spread the load as I'm a weakling.

yes of course. They are correct in that it can ride high to sit above your webbing if you your a soldier. However, it has adjustable straps like any rucksack so you can lower it or raise it. When you lower it you'll find that it tends to lean back a bit, which is why it has another set of adjustable straps at the top to pull it back onto your back.

but i think any pack will do this, it's a non issue anyway.

i guess you already know about the removable side pouches as well? you can remove one or both if you want a smaller pack or take them both off and join them together to make decent day sack (with a webbing yoke)

 

[Diamond Dave]

What I look for in a rucksack is mainly simplicity, multiple usage and light weight. It has taken my some 20 years of outdoors activities to reach this conclusion. I avoid all extra pockets and features, I rarely use them. Some do, mind you. For instance, making a day pack out of side pockets is something I have never ever done, or even felt the need of although I have had packs with this feature. I think sidepockets are just in the way. The same can be said of extra straps and strap points. I rarely use them. But it was just recently that I have taken this stance. If you go back thru my posts you will see that I was very fond of army frame packs. You can see the 'what to do in sweden when it's too cold to paddle' thread in out and about section to see that I still use them on occations when my other packs are too small. But I just can't justify the extra weight when it's not needed. Light is right, especially if you do this as a recreational activity. But some guys and gals still prefer the army lookalike drill, and enjoy telling other people about their struggles, in the pub. For some people the suffering is the goal, or so it seems.

Of course there are several ways we all go about outdoors activities, none is really wrong, (just stoopid.. ). Almost all my outings are foot based, that is I carry my stuff. And since I want to enjoy the outdoors as much as possible I try to reduce the strain of walking. There is an easy way to do this, ease your burden. It took me a lot of years to understand that no carrying system in the world is worth its weight. Carrying is made easier by lighten your load, not by any carrying systems. Of course the easiest way of lighten your load is by omitting stuff you don't really need. This is very dependent on what land your planning on travelling through. I live in Sweden with a right to roam that is very liberal compared to the English, Welsh and even Scottish ones. I would never carry a entrenching tool for instance, since it's much easier to make a digging stick whenever I need one. Likewise I wouldn't carry a fire box or similar stuff, since I don't need it, I don't even use a stove most of the time, the same with tents. I don't bother. So this is not a UL gospel, it's just a philosophy of carrying less by knowing how to use your surroundings, and enjoy yourself in the mean time. On the plus side I can, if I like, travel further and faster than if I was loaded like a mule.

It's not a coincidence that most outdoors people don't use army items any more. It's a shame though that the choice of colours in the civilian outdoors business is almost always limited to very bright colours.

Great Post with lots of information. I go for the Karrimor Sabre and Predator because of the quality and the civilian colours are just too much.

David

 

[big_swede]

I have a 25 year old Karrimor Jaguar 65 and I still use it loads but especially when weight isn't an issue (I have an ultra-light Vapour Trail for lightweight stuff) It is rugged and capacious and I like the way it is split into compartments/pockets. If I am going anywhere where I don't have to carry my pack long distances on a daily basis, this is the one I choose. So, if it ain't broke...

That makes us two with a vapour trail in this thread...

 

[sapper1]

yes of course. They are correct in that it can ride high to sit above your webbing if you your a soldier. However, it has adjustable straps like any rucksack so you can lower it or raise it. When you lower it you'll find that it tends to lean back a bit, which is why it has another set of adjustable straps at the top to pull it back onto your back.

but i think any pack will do this, it's a non issue anyway.

i guess you already know about the removable side pouches as well? you can remove one or both if you want a smaller pack or take them both off and join them together to make decent day sack (with a webbing yoke)

You are very wrong on this.The belt is a stabilising belt not a waist belt.A waist belt is designed to transfer the weight to the hips . The plce pack is designed to sit on your webbing and through this ,transfer the weight to the hips and the shoulders via the webbing yoke as well as the shoulder straps.
The stabilising belt as fitted to plce packs is not padded enough nor thick enough to transfer any weight comfortably.