New Jacket please

caorach

Forager
Nov 26, 2014
156
0
UK
I suspect that the days of the Goretex type waterproof jacket being the "standard" for outdoor wear are probably limited.

It has it's place, I have loads of them and wear them, but it is far from ideal for a lot of purposes.

Despite what the magazines say the waterproof membrane isn't really very breathable at all. Just maybe it is a little better than the old Barbour waxed cotton coats that we used to all wear but not by so very much in practice if you are walking or taking other moderate exercise.

Observation has shown me that most people, most of the time, simply don't need a jacket that is 100% waterproof no matter what the marketing man keeps telling them. Sometimes I'm only out for a few hours, or the weather is showery or the weather is mostly dry or I'm going to be walking hard or I'll only be a mile from the car and will be back soon or... In all of these situations there are better solutions than the completely waterproof membrane and as they will breath better so you will actually be warmer and drier.

My solution to this problem, and other solutions are available, was to go to the military surplus windproof smock. Now already the marketing men and magazine adverts will be pointing out to you that such a smock isn't waterproof and that you can buy it for only £10 so it can't be worth anything. what they miss is the fact that is isn't completely waterproof is one if its big advantages as it has no membrane and so is extremely breathable - this means that in most average weather conditions you stay drier and warmer in your windproof smock than you do in a damp, sticky but totally waterproof jacket. You can get wash in or spay on waterproofing treatments for fabric and this works really well on a surplus windproof smock (you'll be surprised) and will leave you with a jacket that is shower proof. Again the magazine adverts and marketing men will tell you this isn't enough - however I'm out at least 100 days per year in Ireland and the Hebrides and I find that it is enough, and inf fact and improvement over the waterproof membrane, for probably 95% of those days. The magazine adverts are, quite simply, wrong.

The military also provide a waterproof membrane solution in the form of surplus goretex type jackets. Now, maybe people fail to understand that the smocks and waterproof layers were designed as a clothing system and so they need to be considered and worn in this way. The intention was that the smock would be worn in the vast majority of conditions and, as I've detailed above, it is perfect for this and as well as keeping you warmer and drier than a goretex type layer it also has great pockets and is robust. If your brain is telling you that you are going to be out 10 hours in constant heavy rain then you put on your goretex layer UNDER your smock. The modern surplus goretex jackets are lightweight and packable and so it is a trivial matter to have one with you on days when you even think you might need it. Putting your smock on over the goretex layer means that you keep all your pockets and the utility of your smock but you are completely waterproof. It also means that as soon as the rain stops the smock dries very quickly indeed and so in a short while you are taking off the goretex layer and going back to wearing only the much more breathable smock.

Now, of course, some of you quite rightly will not believe me. However, the good news is that this clothing system is very cheap to buy. I'm sure if I called it the "All Weather Dynamic Clothing System," paid for a few adverts and did a bit of product placement by having high profile people wear it while sitting in a forest I could charge £800 for it and you'd all be beating my door down. However, as a special service I will tell you that you can buy the smock and goretex layer for not much money at all. So, if you don't believe me then buy it, wash some waterproofing into the smock, and give it a try. If you really hate it and can't get on with it after a year or two then put it onto ebay and you can sell it for pretty much what you paid for it. If you love it then you can send me £800.
 

Tonyuk

Settler
Nov 30, 2011
938
86
Scotland
The military also provide a waterproof membrane solution in the form of surplus goretex type jackets. Now, maybe people fail to understand that the smocks and waterproof layers were designed as a clothing system and so they need to be considered and worn in this way. The intention was that the smock would be worn in the vast majority of conditions and, as I've detailed above, it is perfect for this and as well as keeping you warmer and drier than a goretex type layer it also has great pockets and is robust. If your brain is telling you that you are going to be out 10 hours in constant heavy rain then you put on your goretex layer UNDER your smock. The modern surplus goretex jackets are lightweight and packable and so it is a trivial matter to have one with you on days when you even think you might need it. Putting your smock on over the goretex layer means that you keep all your pockets and the utility of your smock but you are completely waterproof. It also means that as soon as the rain stops the smock dries very quickly indeed and so in a short while you are taking off the goretex layer and going back to wearing only the much more breathable smock.

Just a note that i'd really recommend against that. The goretex won't breathe with a manky wet smock on top of it and you'll end up just as wet from sweat as you would from the rain, hence why the older pocket-less garry was binned in favor of more outer-shell designs.

Tonyuk
 

Monspoonmaker

Member
Mar 15, 2014
44
3
Silures
Congratulations and thanks to caorach for such a well presented post. I would support the conclusions even though I have achieved the same results with slightly different garments.

To give the context when outdoors I tend to be hill walking in Wales only being stationary for rest stops or eating. Exertion can vary from slogging it to gentle descent and I have experienced every type of weather/temperature all in one long day walk.

Over several years I have tried every (second hand) jacket available. Gortex, wool, ventile, pertex/pile, military surplus, loden wool, modern softshell, and paramo. They have all been interesting and all have their uses and place. I have enjoyed the process of using them to understand their uses. However, like coarach, my conclusions are that I very rarely need a 100% waterproof. The main priorities being breathability, and when needed, windproofing.

It always surprises me how much heat the human body produces when working and my aim is always to stay on the comfortable side of cold. A hat, gloves, or even a scarf play an important part of this adjustment on the move. I have learned that your baselayer is as important a choice as your jacket. Cold temperatures being adjusted through the use of a wool/fleece/primaloft thermal layer.

Gortex or a reliable waterproof is always in the pack but is only used as a last resort, during a stop, or if the rain is sufficient to threaten a complete drenching. Because whatever anyone says no saturated material will keep you warm. Not even wool! However softshells and windproof jackets will dry very quickly. I no longer use gortex when only a windproof is required it just doesn't breath well enough.

The suggestion of a mil spec smock and gortex liner is a cheap solution but there are civilian solutions that avoid the camo look and can be picked up surprisingly cheaply second hand as there does seem to be 'this year's fashion' factor at work.

Keela, paramo, montane and buffalo windproofs are all good quality and could be combined with a cheap (even non gortex/event) waterproof for extreme conditions. However in these conditions you will have to accept that unless you are stationary you will get wet from the inside out.
 

caorach

Forager
Nov 26, 2014
156
0
UK
Just a note that i'd really recommend against that. The goretex won't breathe with a manky wet smock on top of it

You do realise that they make breathable waders? They breath under 3 feet of water so having a damp smock on top simply isn't a problem.
 

caorach

Forager
Nov 26, 2014
156
0
UK
Keela, paramo, montane and buffalo windproofs are all good quality and could be combined with a cheap (even non gortex/event) waterproof for extreme conditions. However in these conditions you will have to accept that unless you are stationary you will get wet from the inside out.

In very cold conditions when I'm not going to be very active i tend to wear a buffalo special 6 under the smock and this works for me. I tend to keep my standard gear in the pockets of my smock so it is really handy to wear it at all times but as you say there are lots of options. Another point worth making is that the military had smocks made in a range of colours including green, black and RAF blue as I appreciate that the cammo thing puts a lot of people off. I'm very lucky in the places I walk - in the Hebrides for example in about 25 years walking many miles I've met 4 people - two were mink trappers and two were anglers. Neither of these groups are particularly fussy what colour you wear :)

Your point is very good though - there are lots of ways to do, basically, what I've described and it is well worth finding one that works for you.

Goretex type membranes are great but they were sold to us as the solution to all our clothing problems whereas they are actually the solution to a very specific problem and they don't work well when faced with most of the other ones. My feeling is that a lot of outdoors type people, at least the ones I see, are going back towards the mil surplus stuff so I'd guess it is only a matter of time before the big clothing companies will sell you something similar for £400.
 

Klenchblaize

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 25, 2005
2,610
135
66
Greensand Ridge
I'd guess it is only a matter of time before the big clothing companies will sell you something similar for £400.

OK so its made with funky G-1000 HD/ECO material but to all intent and purpose a mil-style smock for £500:
http://www.fjallraven.co.uk/smock-no-1
F81841-220_0.jpg


K
 

SGL70

Full Member
Dec 1, 2014
613
124
Luleå, Sweden
You do realise that they make breathable waders? They breath under 3 feet of water so having a damp smock on top simply isn't a problem.


Sure about that? They are watertight, but breathing?...I am having trouble seeing that the pressure in the waders exceeds the pressure from the water.....even if you have eaten boatloads of beans. But I have been wrong before...
 

caorach

Forager
Nov 26, 2014
156
0
UK
Sure about that? They are watertight, but breathing?...I am having trouble seeing that the pressure in the waders exceeds the pressure from the water.....even if you have eaten boatloads of beans. But I have been wrong before...

All I can say is that the people who make them say they breathe even under water and they will provide you with science to support this if you ask. Of course I can't be completely sure it's true.

However, goretex membranes are typically layered with other fabric to protect them and the outer fabric will almost always get wet. Now I know about DWR coatings and all of that stuff but eventually the fabric does wet out. This is no different to having a smock on top of a goretex type material and the truth is that almost all goretex membranes are working with a layer of wet fabric on top of them.
 

Tonyuk

Settler
Nov 30, 2011
938
86
Scotland
You do realise that they make breathable waders? They breath under 3 feet of water so having a damp smock on top simply isn't a problem.

They may "breathe" but i heavily doubt they breath much when actually "in" the water. Gore-tex does not breathe well with a wet layer on top. Wearing the old liner garry under a smock was useless, you were far too warm and got soaked through with sweat, hence the change in goretex smocks to include pockets on the outside now and to be larger cut at the chest. Not only that, after your smock was gipping wet it took forever to dry since alot of your body heat was insulated by the waterproofs, making the situation a pain more than anything else. Taking your garry off to warm your smock up faster just made you damp through, making the whole faf of taking the smock off to put goretex on pointless in the first place.

Tonyuk
 
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Monspoonmaker

Member
Mar 15, 2014
44
3
Silures
Sorry rorymax I have no personal experience of this jacket.

As I said earlier I'm an advocate for windproof jackets over gortex shell but am not all that keen on surplus camo. I found this website in my search for a plain colour alternatative that didn't break the bank. Currently saving for another wardrobe to store all these b***** jackets in before buying another!
 

MikeLA

Full Member
May 17, 2011
2,091
401
Northumberland
Just a note that i'd really recommend against that. The goretex won't breathe with a manky wet smock on top of it and you'll end up just as wet from sweat as you would from the rain, hence why the older pocket-less garry was binned in favor of more outer-shell designs.

Tonyuk


this was done for good reason before and after goretex was used by the army. "To stop the nylon/goretex material rustling noise. If you got a little wet so what tactical was more important. More importantly you still would remain Mostly dry if just a little damp.
 

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