Hmmm... Fences or rambling bears?

[mark a.]

Gosh, I didn't know that Ramblers are considered to be nasty evil people on here. I assumed that people who fight for our right to be out enjoying nature and the countryside would be praised not scorned.

I don't know enough about either the RA or the right to roam laws to make much in the way of reasoned comment on the ins and outs of how it works, unfortunately, but it does sound interesting.

 

[Tantalus]

mark from 20 replies contributed by less than 20 members, it is a bit unfair to think this is representative of all 2097 members

the flip side of this of course is why does the RA feel the need to have a say in something which will happen on private land in a country with fewer acess restrictions than most of europe ?

i understand it may be upsetting to find a bull or other dangerous animal on a public footpath but trust me your life is in much more danger walking along a surfaced road not only from the ever present "white van nutters" "psychotic truckers" and testosterone and adrenaline fuelled "boy racers" but large quantities of salt carbon monoxide and nitrous oxides -even if they have banned lead recently.

in scotland the fact that there is a public footpath does not mean farmers are not allowed to keep animals there

some roads are not even fenced off and neither is there a requirement for them to be

Tant

 

[innocent bystander]

Out of intrest, did they say where the would source the aforementioned beasties from ? Are they plucked from the wild, and dropped in there. Probably not a worry with bison, a tad more of a worry with wolves, but i am sceptical about bears....

 

[BorderReiver]

Out of intrest, did they say where the would source the aforementioned beasties from ? Are they plucked from the wild, and dropped in there. Probably not a worry with bison, a tad more of a worry with wolves, but i am sceptical about bears....

I've no problem with the wolves at all.The hills are over run with deer and some estates don't look after them properly (insufficient culling),leading to suffering.
No need for fencing though,just leave the wolves with an easily available food source and they won't bother anyone.

Not too sure about Bruin though.Did they mention which type of bear?

 

[innocent bystander]

As always, best to go to the souce !! :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/environment/programmes/countryfile/

Seem's the RA problem is with the electric fence

The chap is starting with Bison, Beaver and Wild Boar. This is on a 750 acre site.

He then plans to purchace more land - 23,000 acres, and then add the Wolves and Bears.

 

[Angus Og]

Here's a map of the area.

 

[Shepherd]

If the ramblers like rambling so much, why do they have an issue walking a little further to find a gate?

I am all for bears and wolfs being reintroduced, after all it's the least we could do having wiped them out in the first place. I can't see it making much of a difference unless they are allowed to breed freely although I must admit the tracking possibilities look like fun

 

[redcollective]

Offtopic: This is degenerating into a hissy fit. Saying ramblers are strange is a cheap shot. I take the point above that millions of boots are making a mess of the lakes- agreed - I love walking in the lakes but there are paths I will not do because of the damage being done to the most popular tops (but to be honest I feel more strongly about the damage my boots do to the more sensitive bogs on some of the trails) That's why many walkers also contribute to footpath maintenance (there's a separate debate in there on whether footpath manintenance makes it *too easy* for millions to get on the tops and cause more damage but we won't go there). The difference is the degree and speed of damage. I've personally been up to the thigh in a sodden, muddy rut on a green lane, breeding bird land ripped up, gates *driven* over by 4WDs. It happens in *weeks*. You can't argue the same for the impact of a hillwalker.

And I've walked a mile in those shoes myself - I used to ride bikes and to be honest, I didn't give a damn when I lost traction, but I was a kid then and I think my appreciation for my impact on nature has only increased since I took up walking AND bushcraft as hobbies. I don't think they are incompatible. There slower pace encourages a more considered appreciation of the natural environment.

Back on topic (Apologies for the rant ): Seriously, I don't think this guy will be allowed to introduce anything UNLESS there's a bloody great fence around it. The government surely will have to consider the environmental impact of reintroducing any species on the ecology as it is now (and you can be assured it isn't anything like it was when bison, boar and beaver ranged across Britain (I thought it was Aurochs anyway??)... I just hope this bloke has his heart in the right place and doesn't turn it into a playground for the rich or an awful theme park or something... I have my doubts.

Damn, I'm hungry now with this talk about wild boar... mmmm crackling.

 

[spamel]

I think it is a great idea, but I take it he isn't going to let them run off to do their own thing? I don't think they will stay fenced in for long. Remember Jurrassic Park?!!!!

 

[arctic hobo]

Aurochs? Now that would be good. Thought they were extinct

 

[MartiniDave]

Redcollective,

Don't want to degenerate into any sort of hissy fit or whatever. I guess we'll have to agree to differ.

I'd love to see the wolves and bears re-introduced, I think its a great shame that the right-to-roam should be used against the idea.

Cheers,

Dave

 

[BorderReiver]

I just hope there is no ulterior motive,like hunting trips for rich business men.
I have nothing against hunting per se but I would be well frustrated if he was reintroducing animals just to kill them

 

[george]

I'd love to see the wolves and bears re-introduced, I think its a great shame that the right-to-roam should be used against the idea.

Cheers,

Dave

Dave - surely thats partly the point - the fact that we have the right to roam means that big landowners can't just close their doors, put up big fences and then do whatever they like without some reference to the rest of us. It's got to be more see-through than that, it would be very difficult to turn something like that into a hunting preserve if access has to be garanteed to the rest of us.What he is doing is nothing more than a safari park. Problem is that this proposed safari park takes up a huge tract of land that we have legal right of access to. If he really is serious about reintroduction then obviously negotiation over access would have to take place - if however he's only turning it into a private safari park then he'll have a fight on his hands with all of the interest groups.

If Madonna decided to fence off her little estate down south and put in a couple of pet wolves under the guise of experimental reintroduction just to keep people off her land - wonder what we would all think then? Could become a fashion as a way of restricting access in England even further


George

 

[bothyman]

When you come to Scotland you should watch out for the Bear Signs

 

[Pappa]

Saying ramblers are strange is a cheap shot.

I said, "Although, most of the ones I've met are a bit odd."

I'm not saying all or even most ramblers are strange, just that of the ones I've met, most were a bit odd. Not that there's anything wrong with being odd. I bet a large ammount of ramblers would probably think a lot of us here are a bit odd too, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Pappa

 

[redcollective]

I bet a large ammount of ramblers would probably think a lot of us here are a bit odd too, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Pappa

hehe yep okay true enough ;-)

 

[C_Claycomb]

I am rather skeptical about trying to turn the clock back with the introduction of large animals first. As mentioned, experts have probably looked the area over, but the Scotish Highlands are hardly as varied as Yellow Stone, or areas of Romainia where bears are on the increase. Without a fence I would expect anything released will eventually wander off-site. Until it is determined that the animals can deal with the habitat that might not be a good thing.

I haven't knowingly met any Ramblers, but I have a problem with the idea that everyone has an inate "right" to wander where ever they wish. I think that the UK public rights of way are a great idea, but that there should be compromise, I don't see that when walkers trample straight over a newly planted field because they have the "right to" rather than walk around the edge.

A fence, with access points, would give people the choice of camping with bears or not. Initally that doesn't seem a bad way to do things.

 

[spamel]

I think if they do it but without the fence, the same people would wine. There's no pleasing some folk.

 

[george]

Guys what is the problem everyone seems to have with ramblers and the RA?

Look at the number of threads on here with people moaning about the lack of land available for bushcrafting, the problems with lighting a fire, or the fact that trespass is still an offence in England.

The ramblers association have fought for walkers and campers rights for years.

The law suits that they win help you gain access too.

They are not some other species - all of us could probably be described as ramblers too!

Chris - I believe we do have an innate right to wander where we will - provided that we act responsibly. If you look at the text of Scottish access law (which is amongst the most liberal in Europe) you will see that our right is described as the right of responsible access, responsible access being determined then by a set of guidelines and a code of conduct. No-one has the right to trample over a newly planted field.

Spamel - did you read the original BBC article? Didn't sound like whining to me.

quote:"The animals would be kept behind an electrified fence and it's this part of the proposal that has bought him into opposition with the Ramblers' Association which says to do so would deprive them of hard won access rights. It wants large carnivores back in Scotland but would prefer to see them running free and not enclosed."

Guys, lighten up on the Ramblers Association - they're doing a good job for you too.

George

 

[mark a.]

I don't see that when walkers trample straight over a newly planted field because they have the "right to" rather than walk around the edge.

From the RA's website:
"Walkers should act responsibly when exercising their right of access, and follow the Scottish Outdoor Access Code published by Scottish Natural Heritage. For example you should avoid walking across growing crops when there is a route around the field or across sports pitches when they are in use, and obey advisory signs asking you to avoid certain areas at certain times for land management, safety or conservation reasons."

Most walkers (judging by those I've met) will generally be considerate, and try to minimise any effect on the landowner. Of course there will be those who spoil things, be they hard-core RA activists or vandalising yobbos - but you'll get a mix of such behaviour in all aspects of life.

Thanks for the Countryfile link, Tantalus - it gives a bit more flavour to the question. It would be great to see such animals again, but I suppose electrified fences are slightly trickier to cross !