Heads up! Paypal Friends and Family

[Toddy]

There are rather a lot of grumbles, and having dealt with four this evening alone, it's probably time to be blunt and give a clear heads up.
Please read the rules before you sell.
https://bushcraftuk.com/community/index.php?threads/new-rule-seller-will-pay-paypal-fees.105856/

Most of the issues are about sellers asking buyers to pay for goods as paypal friends and family and not as a purchase.
Problem is that F&F doesn't come with insurance of money back if things go amiss for some reason or another.

So, the forum asks that the price advertised is the full price, that includes all fees, and it's the Seller's responsibility to pay them.
Background pleas or demands in conversation for buyers to skip that and send by F&F are not on.
Paypal as a purchase might not be quite the cheapest option but it's the safest and most reliable one we can find.
As ever, your understanding would be much appreciated

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[Mesquite]

Simple enough to use a fee calculator to work out the price you need to charge extra to get what you want in your account

 

[Toddy]

Thank you
I'll mind that.

M

 

[Nice65]

One of the problems faced by BCUK in regards the actual legality of PayPal transactions hosted on the site is Friends and Family violates the PayPal Agreement, publicly.

An’ it’s the rules.

 

[Stew]

It's also worth remembering that someone posting an item recorded, signed for etc, protects the sender not the buyer....

 

[Mesquite]

It's also worth remembering that someone posting an item recorded, signed for etc, protects the sender not the buyer....

Very true... so many sellers try washing their hands of non deliveries saying they posted it, it's up to you the buyer to sort out why it never arrived.

 

[Fadcode]

it is also worth remembering that although it is possible to pay for items with PP, if the items are on their prohibited list you have no chance of claiming your money back if things go wrong, check first, especially if selling knives, or guns.

 

[Nice65]

Very true... so many sellers try washing their hands of non deliveries saying they posted it, it's up to you the buyer to sort out why it never arrived.

So true, lots of sellers don’t seem to get that the choice of postage method is theirs, not the buyer, and they’re responsible for the item until it’s in their hands. Tracked 24 or 48 is ideal for this.

 

[Dogoak]

There's both Buyer and Seller Protection via PayPal. There's obviously some limitations, it's all on Paypal's site.

Interestingly I sold something on eBay a month or so back. I sent it to the US using their Global shipping Program and it got stopped at the UK depot, me receiving a message that it was prohibited! Weird, I'd sent a similar item to the US about a year before, no problem. They refunded the buyer and ME

I've done a bit of trading online for a few years and I just make sure that when I'm sending I ALWAYS get proof of posting, and full value cover. I make sure it's packed suitably, clearly addressed and with a return address, simples.


What's the score if I personally want to send the funds as 'friend', maybe it would be to a long term member I've dealt with in the past? Virtual friend?

 

[Stew]

What's the score if I personally want to send the funds as 'friend', maybe it would be to a long term member I've dealt with in the past? Virtual friend?

It's up to you and has been something I've done in the past but, as you say, it's with folk I know. If that virtual friend says they've posted it (recorded or not) but it never shows up then you have no way to force a refund.

 

[Dogoak]

It's up to you and has been something I've done in the past but, as you say, it's with folk I know. If that virtual friend says they've posted it (recorded or not) but it never shows up then you have no way to force a refund.

Yeah, I've sent and recieved (voluntary) payments as 'friend', just wondered what the 'official' forum policy was, for me, hopefully still some freedom of choice?

 

[Toddy]

We'd really rather you didn't.

The 'official' line is that the forum is not responsible for any sales, for recovering your money or goods, it's simply a forum. The rights to sell and advertise are restricted to those who support the site financially, and help keep the servers running. The Full Members, the Traders and the like. It's a simple 'Thank You'

However, we do get reports of people who have lost out on either goods or monies, with no come back. No way to retrieve either, and their buyer/seller is being recalcitrant or has genuinely played their part but the goods haven't arrived, and being a bushcraft forum where good quality, and generally expensive, kit is bought and sold, it can be a substantial loss when things go awry.

Paypal as a purchase solves that problem. It keeps things sweet. Think on it as paying a little extra for insurance. Paypal as payment to friend or family comes with no such insurance, and the post office guarantees are incredibly limited and restrictive.

We don't check up on what you do behind the scenes, but we can be blunt about it not being a good idea, and about removing adverts that clearly do not comply with the guidelines.

If the buyer is prepared to pay the price asked, then the least the seller can do is to accept payment as a purchase so that the insurance is valid.

M

 

[Dogoak]

Thanks M

 

[Toddy]

I know that not everybody is happy to use Paypal, and for whatever reason they might have, we have to respect that. The only other way I know of to have insurance is to use a credit card, but I don't know about you, but I don't have any way to accept payment by a credit card, and unless one is a 'business' I doubt anyone else does really, either. Bank transfer using a credit card though? I think that should work.
As far as I know the post office's insurance is a bit one sided, and the couriers will cough up if the goods are lost and you've taken out the extra to cover the full value.
The problems come when the insurance doesn't cover and then the if the seller refunds the buyer, then he/she is out on the goods.

If anyone has any better ideas I'd like to hear them. So far I've been very fortunate with any deals I've done, but I see how many don't work out too.
Thankfully the bias seems to be on deals going fairly smoothly

M

 

[Mesquite]

The only other way I know of to have insurance is to use a credit card, but I don't know about you, but I don't have any way to accept payment by a credit card,

You can use a credit card or debit card to pay a Paypal invoice which has been raised by the seller. The advantage of this is you don't have to have a paypal account to pay this way.

All the seller needs to do is click on send an invoice, fill the form out with all the necessary info including the buyers emal address and then hit send

 

[Nice65]

Thing is M, and you’ve already mentioned it, BCUK has absolutely no responsibility for sales. The forums responsibility to its members stretches only as far as the possible banning or slap of a member who’s shafted another. PayPal have put their own system into place, with its rules and user agreements, BCUKs only ask is that these rules are followed because they’re being hosted by Tony, and are public.

To be honest, if anyone wants to deal outside the rules and PayPal policy, there is a PM system.

 

[Toddy]

Yep, that's pretty much it.

I am mindful though that behind the scenes we have had buyers 'pushed' into paying in a way that they didn't prefer and didn't give them any insurance when things went amiss.
I think the reassurance, and the reasons why, that others would advise agin that, are a good thing.

So, I think this thread's useful. It's a clear heads up; thank you everyone who gave informed advice ; and it's timely. The Classifieds are busy.

I genuinely hope the sales go well for both parties.

M