hazel coppice pole furniture??

[mr dazzler]

Has any one ever used coppice poles or other thinings to make rustic type log furniture? I am very familiar with using split ash or oak from larger mature standard tree's to make chair component's, but have no experience with using coppice poles (eg hazel or ash ones; I was thinking round mortice and tennon construction) Also does any one know if coppice poles work with plank seat slab and stick type construction, is there enough tensile strength in a sapling or does the wedging weaken them?
Cheers Jonathan

 

[weaver]

There is a style of Gypsy furniture over here made from willow sprouts. I should think hazel would work equally well or better.

Here's a linky to see the style.

http://www.aroundthebendwillowfurniture.com/seating.html

see if we can get a piccy up.

 

[mr dazzler]

I really do like that particular chair in the pic; theres a strong form, and the materials yield to its demands but still retain their rustic character. Some log furniture I have seen doersnt look nearly as graceful or well executed. It looks like they used a mix of tennons and nailed joint's on that particuler one. Thanks for the link

 

[Eric_Methven]

I've been making stuff like that for years. Round mortice and tenon joints work better than nailed joints. As the wood dries and shrinks the mortice and tenons become tighter and last longer while the nails work themselves loose seasonaly as the wood expands and contracts with weather and humidity variations. Another good method of fixing is dowel. Dowels expand and contract at the same rate as the rest of the wood, so don't slacken with time.

Coppiced poles work well with slab seats. The secret is to have the slab as green as possible and the coppiced legs dried out. Then when you knock the legs into the seat, the seat shrinks around the leg making it impossible to remove. It also does away with the need for wedges to hold the leg in place. Any weakness will come through failing to remove the bark thereby encouraging insect infestation. A good oiling will add years to the life of any piece of rustic furniture made in this way.

Eric

 

[Jack]

Has any one ever used coppice poles or other thinings to make rustic type log furniture? I am very familiar with using split ash or oak from larger mature standard tree's to make chair component's, but have no experience with using coppice poles (eg hazel or ash ones; I was thinking round mortice and tennon construction) Also does any one know if coppice poles work with plank seat slab and stick type construction, is there enough tensile strength in a sapling or does the wedging weaken them?
Cheers Jonathan

Hi Jonathan.

Good question as there is plenty of raw material out there to be used...

There isn't to much of a problem with this technique/style, it isn't historically 'English' and has only become popular since the early to mid nineties when the hazel revolution really took off.

What you have to be mindful of is that the hazel that you would be using will be, in relative terms very young. Essentially it is sapwood. As you will more than likely know, sapwood will rot in front of your eyes - if kept outdoors. If you are making furniture for indoor use only then hazel (like all woods) will out last you and your children and your grandchildren and your children's children.....

The mistake that the 'round' wood guys made was to sell their round wood products to people who put them and keep them outside - it was a PR disaster.

Best wishes

Jack.

 

[mr dazzler]

Thank you for the advice gent's.
Can I ask please Eric, what method do you use to form the tennon's? I once made a home made router box jig type it would do real acutate and parallell 1 inch tennons once it was fettled a bit and set up. But I always instictiveley prefer tapered tennons (alexander type reamer, and block plane to do tennons, after you did a few hundred you see the taper by eye ) The cast alloy cutter's seem pricy, arent they essentially hi tech rounding planes? I saw someone else on the web as uses a dewalt hole cutter to form tennons. Plenty of times I just cut them by hand. Also I understand the principles of the gren wood shrink fitting across the grain etc BUT if you set dry legs into a green seat, OK the seat will shrink onto the legs (I air dry for a year or so, and then keep them in the airing cupboard for the last 10 or 14 days then assemble immediately, never bothered with a bucket of hot sand and never had any seat's "drop" ) arent you potentially goin to get levelling problems if the seat twists, warps or cups some whilst it dries? (unless you leave the legs over-long and make the level cuts after the seat is well dried out?) I have generally used laminated recycled joists for seats but at present am working on a solid beech one.
Thanks for the tip's on hazel jack, I have a possible source locally but havent seen any of it yet, could be an inch, 2 inch, 3 inch?
cheers Jonathan

 

[Eric_Methven]

If I'm demonstrating, I use a brace and bit to drill the hole and a shave horse and drawknife to shape the top of the leg. I drill a hole in a bit of scrap wood and use that as a guage so I don't take too much off. Leveling has never really been much of a problem for me as I mainly do three legged milking stools. Most of my clients are re-enactors who use their stools outdoors on uneven ground. If I am doing a batch of stools in the workshop and authenticity isn't as important as price, I drill the holes with a power drill and use a power tenon cutter for the tops of the legs. I always leave the legs over long and trim them once the whole piece is dry anyway.

Eric

 

[spamel]

A funny story related to stool legs! My dad had a really tall four legged stool, and wanted to shorten it by about four inches so that he could use it as a high chair for my younger brother. This was back in 1980. So, dad got his saw out and chopped a couple of bits of wood off, put the stool on the floor and it was a bit wobbly, so he chopped a thin bit off here and a thin bit off there, but it was still wobbly! I don't have to tell you that he carried on sawing a little bit off here and a little bit off there, and by the time he had got it straight, he had a foot rest!

 

[mr dazzler]

I use a brace and bit to drill the hole and a shave horse and drawknife to shape the top of the leg. I drill a hole in a bit of scrap wood and use that as a guage so I don't take too much off.

Thanks Eric. Sounds like your using the standard spindle shaving technique? I once made a shaker rocker and did precisely that to make the stretcher's, used a spoke shave to fine tune the tennon ends so they fit after rough shaping them with the axe and drawknife and letting them air dry (I am not usually in a rush ). One of the few ocasion's when I used parallell tennon's. Do you generally use paralell or tapered tennon's?
I once managed to get some decent green ash locally (to darlington) from Fosters at Croft. It broke my heart when they scrapped there hard woods side of the business. Me and my Dad and old man Foster used to walk round the yard just studying the elm beech sycamore 2 inch boards etc etc I made my first chair leg from pit props that they still used and sold back then.
PS I have made a few 3 legged child sized backstools but have frankly had problem's with stability. I've never been one to shy away from steep leg angle slant's, I made the rear single one go back about 20 degres, same with the front pair out side ways, but it still was easy for the kids to tip. What could be wrong, any ideas?
Oh and what copice poles would you recomend if you had a ideal choice?Hazel, oak, ash, chestnut?
chers Jonathan

 

[mr dazzler]

A funny story related to stool legs! My dad had a really tall four legged stool, and wanted to shorten it by about four inches so that he could use it as a high chair for my younger brother. This was back in 1980. So, dad got his saw out and chopped a couple of bits of wood off, put the stool on the floor and it was a bit wobbly, so he chopped a thin bit off here and a thin bit off there, but it was still wobbly! I don't have to tell you that he carried on sawing a little bit off here and a little bit off there, and by the time he had got it straight, he had a foot rest!

This is how I do my level up cut's

I set the legged up chair on a level surface (concrte paving slab that IS level not on the ###) and position it with a stabila level and hold it there with wedges so it is also level side to side and at the right angle front to back (seat slope) Then I use a template block to scribe a pencil line parallell to the concrete at the desired height from the seat top, 4 simple saw cut's, voila, never fails.

Here is a pic of one of those stools Eric. Its sort of an Irish/chinease hybrid form made of firewood scrap and painted with oil glaze and danish oil and waxed

 

[weaver]

I would make the child's chair with two legs in back and one in front. Children tend to lean back in the chair and you want the most stability where they put the most stress.

 

[mr dazzler]

I did try that but it seemed about the same anount of stability. No photo of that one unfortunately, but this is another one I did

Which was based on historical examples such as these

Oh I do have a pic of the 3 leg one with 2 legs at the back, but re modiefied with 4 leg's instead of 3

You can see where I patched the old front leg socket with a square piece of oak The kids dont tip that one too easily. Again Irish influenced form, seat made of discarded oak kitchen worktop off cut's, legs and spindles recycled fire wood (ash/oak)

 

[Eric_Methven]

Do you generally use paralell or tapered tennon's?
I have made a few 3 legged child sized backstools but have frankly had problem's with stability. I've never been one to shy away from steep leg angle slant's, I made the rear single one go back about 20 degres, same with the front pair out side ways, but it still was easy for the kids to tip. What could be wrong, any ideas?
Oh and what copice poles would you recomend if you had a ideal choice?Hazel, oak, ash, chestnut?
chers Jonathan

Fistly, I use parallel tenons, mainly because I don't have (or need) a reamer.
Secondly, the stools are tipping because the kids are leaning back on one single leg. If the three legged stool has a back, put two legs at the back an one in front. Same effect but much more stable.
Thirdly, Ash, oak, rowan, hazel, silver birch in that order of preference.

Eric

 

[commandocal]

That is amazing, Reckon it could be made in the field without fancy tools? Would be awesome to sit on that by a fire

 

[weaver]

My friends in Alabama used to make them with only a handsaw, hammer, nails and a pocket knife.

They sold each chair several times before they got caught.

 

[mr dazzler]

Hi Jonathan.

Good question as there is plenty of raw material out there to be used...

There isn't to much of a problem with this technique/style, it isn't historically 'English' and has only become popular since the early to mid nineties when the hazel revolution really took off.

What you have to be mindful of is that the hazel that you would be using will be, in relative terms very young. Essentially it is sapwood. As you will more than likely know, sapwood will rot in front of your eyes - if kept outdoors. If you are making furniture for indoor use only then hazel (like all woods) will out last you and your children and your grandchildren and your children's children.....

The mistake that the 'round' wood guys made was to sell their round wood products to people who put them and keep them outside - it was a PR disaster.

Best wishes

Jack.

Thirdly, Ash, oak, rowan, hazel, silver birch in that order of preference.

Thank you for your input gents
Just a further question on durability of coppice, when I mentioned about the tensile strength of coppice, Jack's comment about the coppice being sapwood was what I was getting at. I found out by experience that a sapling doesnt necessarily make a decent tool handle, it doesnt have the same strength as stuff cleft from a mature log. Is it just hazel thats poor for outdoor use, (weather-resistance wise)? Are the species you mentioned Eric any better in that regard? What would be the most suitable for (EG) patio furniture that would be outside (in the summer at least) and open to all weather's?
Cheers Jonathan

 

[Eric_Methven]

I'd say ash, oak and rowan. All woods will deteriorate under certain conditions. Either extremes as in outdoors in hot dry summer and damp cold winter will encourage the rapid deterioration of wood. Oiling will help slow the process down. Timber treatments (cuprinol) and the like will help prevent insect and fungicidal infestation. Also central heating indoors does wood no great favours as it tends to be a dry heat which dries it out too much.
If you want stick furniture that will be kept outside, probably sweet chestnut will be your best bet. Mature cleaven wood will be stronger, but coppiced 7 year old stuff should be OK for small projects that don't get much abuse. Likewise 10 year old hazel should be OK for furniture. Hazel is cut at 7 years for walking sticks, so 10 year old stuff will be OK for stool legs. The advantage of hazel is it doesn't crack or split when left in the round, even with the bark left on. Always cut it in the winter if you want the bark to stay on.

Hope this helps,

Eric

 

[mr dazzler]

It certainly does help Eric thanks for your post.
I should of clarifeid to start with, this is the sort of rustic style that I feel drawn to experiment with

where the components are pretty much used structurally like regular cleft sticks, except that the natural crooks and bends are incorpoarted as they are and subtly sudgest or refer to the classic chair forms such as klismos, gibson, chipenndale, windsor, welsh, chinease etc and theres room for assymetry and an organic feel. I am not so interested in the use of the long withies as in the picture earlier in the thread (eve though I DID like that chaier)
I was trained as a sculptor at Goldsmith college, the love of form has never left me really, even though the involvement in art world politics has

 

[spamel]

The advantage of hazel is it doesn't crack or split when left in the round, even with the bark left on.

Unless you force dry it on the radiator for two weeks!



Still, for my first staff it looks good though, and the cracks are only in the end and will seal with a bit of wax.

 

[weaver]

I am beginning to experiment with those forms myself.

Here we have mountain ash, laurel and hop hornbeam. Slow growing, small trees with great strength and fantasy figure. I hope to explore the use of these in furniture and perhaps influence the growth of some trees on my property.