gas stove

[johnboy]

For example my wife has a blowtorch in the kitchen (for doing exciting things like setting fire to the pudding) and although it uses a propane/butane mix, it states clearly on the label that it must not be used with any gas mixture which has a propane concentration higher than 18% and it must not be stored at temperatures greater than 60 degrees Celsius.

Does your wifes blowtorch have an internal Reservoir for it's gas or is it running from a detachable canister?

 

[ged]

Does your wifes blowtorch have an internal Reservoir for it's gas or is it running from a detachable canister?

It has a fixed reservoir which is refillable in the same way as many gas lighters. It's this one.

Many others exist, some of which have detachable canisters, use your favourite search engine for e.g. 'chef blowtorch'.

Excellent flame BTW.

 

[johnboy]

It has a fixed reservoir which is refillable in the same way as many gas lighters. It's this one.

I'm not after a Chef's blowtorch... I have a Brulee Iron...

However the fact you blowtorch has an internal reservoir explains the warnings on it in respect to % of propane allowed and not keeping it in excessive temps. The Reservoir has a limitation on the maximum developed pressure it can hold.

With respect your assertion regarding Propane being dangerous is correct for this type of appliance. But a bit of a stretch for say a canister stove using a canister approved to EN 417 or DOT 2P they are designed to withstand the pressure of the LPG mix that is in them.

Assuming someone hasn't refilled a thin walled EN417 type canister with 100% propane which you will not get commercially. Then canisters are safe and the risk of them going off like a 'grenade' is low in normal day to day situations.

I don't have the standard here at home but EN417 ( and DOT 2P) mandate a whole bunch of tests around external heating of canisters..

What is possibly an issue is the aeration and orifice size in the appliance jet. Very generally speaking a given aeration rate and orifice size works for a given gas type but can give problems with another. So simplistically butane burns optimally in one combination Propane in another and mixes in another. When you specify an appliance you can set a combination that does well on a mix and will handle extremes at a push.. Appliance standards often call up testing on 'limit' gases EN521 does from memory.

Anyhow.. If you're running Butane in an appliance designed for Propane you might find the appliance soots a bit. Not every appliance will some might. The risk with sooting is the associated production of CO which might be a concern.

HTH

John

 

[rik_uk3]

I've started using A4 gas adaptors for lanterns and a couple of stoves, these little butane cylinders are working well.

 

[widu13]

'Better' is a strange word to use for a butane/propane mixture.

There's a lot of physics and engineering involved in the design and construction of gas appliances so that, hopefully, they are safe in use.

The physics means that liquified propane in a bottle at room temperatures will be at a much higher pressure than the liquified butane in the bottle sitting next to it. For example at 20 degrees Celsius, butane will be at about 15psi but propane will be at about 100psi. Mixes of propane and butane which have a higher proportion of propane operate at pro rata higher pressures.

The engineering means that any given appliance has been designed to work on a particular gas or gas mixture and within a particular range of temperatures. For example my wife has a blowtorch in the kitchen (for doing exciting things like setting fire to the pudding) and although it uses a propane/butane mix, it states clearly on the label that it must not be used with any gas mixture which has a propane concentration higher than 18% and it must not be stored at temperatures greater than 60 degrees Celsius.

At normal atmospheric pressure and at temperatures much below 0 degrees Celsius, pure butane won't turn into a gas at all. Propane can be a gas down to about minus 42 degrees. So propane might be 'better' at very cold temperatures, but only if the appliance is designed to be used with that gas. If you use a gas other than the one for which the appliance is designed you may effectively have made a little grenade, which might for example go off when you leave it on the car's dashboard one sunny day.

In some jurisdictions you may be breaking the law if you use an incorrect gas mixture. You won't care very much about that if your grenade had just killed you, but if it killed someone else you may want to find a good lawyer.

I've yet to see a stove that specifies the butane/propane mix. (I confess to not studying them in the greatest of detail!) In much the same way that caravan appliances can run on pure butane, pure propane or a mix of the two.

Scaremongering won't help anyone wanting advice. After all you MIGHT get run over by a bus tomorrow.

 

[ged]

I'm not after a Chef's blowtorch... I have a Brulee Iron...

Well you did ask.

However the fact you blowtorch has an internal reservoir explains the warnings on it in respect to % of propane allowed and not keeping it in excessive temps. The Reservoir has a limitation on the maximum developed pressure it can hold.

With respect your assertion regarding Propane being dangerous is correct for this type of appliance. But a bit of a stretch for say a canister stove using a canister approved to EN 417 or DOT 2P they are designed to withstand the pressure of the LPG mix that is in them.

You're right, and I didn't mean to imply that canisters were not safe to contain the gases which are sold in them. Reading my post again I can see that it could have been a lot clearer.

Assuming someone hasn't refilled a thin walled EN417 type canister with 100% propane which you will not get commercially. Then canisters are safe and the risk of them going off like a 'grenade' is low in normal day to day situations.

Again you're right. My concern was mainly things like the refillable blowtorch which could be filled with the wrong gas or gas mixture, or using one manufacturer's appliance with another manufacturer's gas. People do sometimes try to reduce costs doing outlandish things with gas bottles. They will often observe the natural selection process at first hand.

What is possibly an issue is the aeration and orifice size in the appliance jet. Very generally speaking a given aeration rate and orifice size works for a given gas type but can give problems with another. So simplistically butane burns optimally in one combination Propane in another and mixes in another. ... Anyhow.. If you're running Butane in an appliance designed for Propane you might find the appliance soots a bit. Not every appliance will some might. The risk with sooting is the associated production of CO which might be a concern.

More good advice. Usually a domestic regulator will supply butane at 28 millibars or propane at 37 millibars (very low pressures, a fraction of 1psi). In theory this will help with the aeration issue.

I've yet to see a stove that specifies the butane/propane mix. (I confess to not studying them in the greatest of detail!)

All gas stoves have specifications for their safe operation. They are all sold with instructions for their safe use. Read and obey the instructions. To do otherwise is to ask for an incident.

In much the same way that caravan appliances can run on pure butane, pure propane or a mix of the two.

It would be unwise to assume that any particular appliance can be used with any particular fuel. There will have been a document supplied with the appliance when it was new, stating the intended fuel(s). Most caravan appliances need a regulator. The regulator isolates the appliance from the pressure in the bottle. The pressures in the bottles will usually be many times greater than the pressures experienced by the appliance and the local pipework, which do not need to (and probably could not safely) cope with the pressures in the bottles. As noted above the pressures which most caravan appliances use are typically a fraction of one psi. The pressure in a propane bottle can easily exceed 200psi. Some regulators are designed for use with either butane or propane. It would be unwise to use a butane regulator with a propane bottle, and one of the reasons that there are so many different types of thread on gas bottles is to prevent this kind of thing from happening). It would be unwise to use any appliance without first establishing the fuel which it is intended to burn.

There are also industrial regulators which generally supply much higher pressures, and adjustable regulators which can supply a variable pressure which may be much higher than the pressures for domestic use. They should not be used for appliances which are not designed for use with them. They are sometimes stolen from building sites etc. and find their way onto gas bottles on caravans. I have found them myself on caravans that I have bought.

In the UK, there is a substantial body of legislation covering pressurized gas containers, regulators, their use, storage and transport.

Regulated supplies aside, my main concerns are

(1) There are refillable lighters and similar which are designed for use with pure butane and which could easily be filled using a butane/propane mix from the container supplied to refill the wife's kitchen blowtorch. If the lighter is intended for use with the mix then all is well. Otherwise it might not be.

(2) Amongst other things this thread has included discussion of using one manufacturer's stove with another manufacturer's gas bottles. The manufacturers will in all cases say "Don't do that." or words to that effect IN WRITING in the instructions which they supply with their products, should anyone care to read them.

Scaremongering won't help anyone wanting advice. After all you MIGHT get run over by a bus tomorrow.

You are much less likely to be run over by a bus if you follow the recommended procedures, and you are much less likely to be killed by a stove if you follow the manufacturer's instructions.

It's not so much scaremongering, as imploring people to use that squishy grey thing between their ears.

 

[rik_uk3]

The pure Butane A4 cans I'm using in things like gas lanterns, Omnifuel and Pocket Rocket are safe enough then

 

[johnboy]

The pure Butane A4 cans I'm using in things like gas lanterns, Omnifuel and Pocket Rocket are safe enough then

Yep they are....

It would be unwise to assume that any particular appliance can be used with any particular fuel. There will have been a document supplied with the appliance when it was new, stating the intended fuel(s). Most caravan appliances need a regulator. The regulator isolates the appliance from the pressure in the bottle. The pressures in the bottles will usually be many times greater than the pressures experienced by the appliance and the local pipework, which do not need to (and probably could not safely) cope with the pressures in the bottles. As noted above the pressures which most caravan appliances use are typically a fraction of one psi. The pressure in a propane bottle can easily exceed 200psi. Some regulators are designed for use with either butane or propane. It would be unwise to use a butane regulator with a propane bottle, and one of the reasons that there are so many different types of thread on gas bottles is to prevent this kind of thing from happening). It would be unwise to use any appliance without first establishing the fuel which it is intended to burn.

There are also industrial regulators which generally supply much higher pressures, and adjustable regulators which can supply a variable pressure which may be much higher than the pressures for domestic use. They should not be used for appliances which are not designed for use with them. They are sometimes stolen from building sites etc. and find their way onto gas bottles on caravans. I have found them myself on caravans that I have bought.

While that is interesting I think you'll find most folk if they are using a gas stove are using one that uses a disposeable canister of some sort.

The majority of those appliances are designed to run on canister pressure and are un regulated.. Some appliances that use a refillable cylinder are designed to run on cylinder pressure and are unregulated also.

 

[rik_uk3]

I mentioned on CCS running costs, the cheap A4 canisters now make using gas almost as cheap as using paraffin these days. To be honest, in summer months I'll be leaving the Vapalux at home and just use gas lamps.

 

[ged]

... I think you'll find most folk if they are using a gas stove are using one that uses a disposeable canister of some sort.

The majority of those appliances are designed to run on canister pressure and are un regulated.. Some appliances that use a refillable cylinder are designed to run on cylinder pressure and are unregulated also.

That is exactly the reason for my point 2 in my post number 26 in this thread.

Nobody here wants to see someone hurt through the use of an incorrect combination of gas and/or gas cylinder and/or appliance, and if they can later claim that "somebody on BCUK said it would be all right" the ramifications could also be unpleasant, not only for those involved in the discussion but also for the forum's owner.

 

[johnboy]

That is exactly the reason for my point 2 in my post number 26 in this thread.

Nobody here wants to see someone hurt through the use of an incorrect combination of gas and/or gas cylinder and/or appliance, and if they can later claim that "somebody on BCUK said it would be all right" the ramifications could also be unpleasant, not only for those involved in the discussion but also for the forum's owner.

That's streching things a bit far IMHO... Why pick on Gas stoves and the correct use of canisters as a crusade for 'correct practice and or advice' on BCUK.. Why not head over the the first aid sub forum they like to talk about all sorts of scary stuff, or head onto the 'sharp implements' sub forum as there is a risk there folk cutting themselves ad infinitum...Or look at advice given out on medicinal plants... Or worry about advice on home made clothing as you might freeze to death.

Any how...

Yep all manufacturers generally state for an appliance using En417 type canisters that you must only use Canister XX... MSR on the Pocket rocket Hypothetically might say only use MSR canisters for example..

There are 3 reasons for this...

1. MSR want you to buy their canisters.
2. When the appliance is tested for certification say under the EU GAD it's generally tested with a canister supplied by the manufacturer. The CE certification when issued will either state the gas type the appliance is approved for.. Say I3BP or note a specific canister. Most test labs state a gas type rather then a canister type as MSR want you to be able to run the stove say on a 230g and a 450g canister and having specific canisters mentioned gets a bit messy on the cert and expensive in testing..
3. It gives the manufacturer an 'out' if the appliance faults with another canister.

The question is if say my MSR pocket rocket is tested and approved on an 80/20 Butane/ Propane mix in an En417 canister. Do I face a problem in reality if I then choose to use a Primus 80/20 B/P mix in an EN 417 approved canister?

Then you have to factor in I suppose that a lot of the canisters regardless of manufacture all come out of a couple of factories in Korea.

Then factor in if the appliance is tested on limit gas as part of it's approval.

Then look at most simple canister stove designs being basically a needle valve with orifice and burner attached with no pressure regulator involved. They are really simple gas appliances in reality.

I agree it's important always to use common sense around camp stoves. Especially when changing the canister and using in confined spaces such as a tent or snow hole... But holding reasonable discourse about them is not going to undermine BCUK IMHO...

 

[widu13]

Agreed.

I have found that my MSR gas lamp will only use a very few non branded MSR gas carts i.e. different makes, but a non branded gas lamp I have uses all makes of cartridge.

BTW for all of you non caravanners out there regulators are now standardised across Europe for dual use with butane AND propane (and mixes of both) and have been for years. Moral? Beware of people talking rubbish!

 

[Tengu]

Well, today I found another blow torch which uses pierecable cans, if anyones interested