Friction fire set help !!

[pumbaa]

I am in the middle of making a fire bow set , i used a couple of bits of pallet for the hearth and bearing block , and some silver birch for the bow and spindle .
I am at the point of wearing the holes in , but cant get the spindle to turn freely enough . Am i using the wrong wood ? The bow is nearly an arms length and has a fair amount of tension . I have stripped the bark from the contact point with the string . I have tried various amounts of pressure on the bearing block but it seems to be either too tight to allow movement or so lose the spindle keeps popping out !!!
Any suggestions ?
Cheers
Pumbaa

 

[Marts]

Pretty hard to get it too tight. What type of cord are you using?

 

[pumbaa]

I am using paracord , its the cheap stuff without the inner .
pumbaa

 

[Jeff Wagner]

Pallets are typically made from hard woods such as oak. If you dont have an opportunity to go collect some wild wood I would go to the lumber store and pick up a poplar board.

 

[rich59]

I learnt to wear the depressions in by first sharpenning the spindle ends to a point and making a small but deep enough depression in the hearth and bearing. They then wear down with nicely matching surfaces and shouldn't jump out.

 

[bushtuckerman]

I haven't had much experience with any great variety of woods, so take what i say with a grain of salt, but have been able use willow with willow fairly consistently.

I'm guessing the pallets might be pine, i haven't used it myself but i think it has worked for others. I have no idea about a pine-birch combination.

If you are having trouble with it being too tight then you might want to try using a harder wood for the bearing block than the hearth, because if you use the same type of wood for both it is quite likely to burn similarly at both ends! this causes unhelpful levels of friction, and you can feel like you are putting loads of effort in without anything happening.

Keep experimenting with varying the pressure you apply with the bearing block, as i have found that you have to increase it gradually as you progress for the 30-40s or so.

As Marts has said it is generally good to have a tight bow and spindle, as this means it doesn't slip so much, and therefore uses nearly all of the energy you put into bowing to turn the spindle, but just not so tight that the it pops out and takes your knuckles off!

And you have a second vote for sharpening the spindle to a gentle point, really does make the difference, then all you need in the hearth is a slight impression to take the point and it will find it's own way. Make sure you keep the spindle absolutely straight, it helps to anchor your bearing block arm against your leg to maintain this.

I have used para cord (cheapy stuff) easily enough.

The thing about this particular method is that it is quite complicated, and there are always things to fiddle and adjust to your liking, and that takes a fair amount of persistence before you get it right, so just keep at it!

Hope that helps,

-ian

 

[Brian]

pumbaa,

try putting some soap flakes in the bearing block depression so that the spindle moves a bit better whilst still maintaining the pressure on the other end, thats what seems to work for me, hope this helps mate,

Brian

 

[Longstrider]

In my (very limited) experience it sounds like a good measure of your problem is bearing block friction and cord tension. Using something harder than your spindle and hearth as a bearing is a good move. Anything that will take the pressure and heat that has a depression in it that will hold the spindle will do. I made my bearing from a piece of box wood, hard as hell, and even that still works best if lubricated with some grease from the side of my nose or a little oil on the spindle tip. I've seen others recommend putting a holly leaf in the socket of the bearing as it's greasy texture helps to lube the socket/spindle.

Don't rely on the bow to provide all the tension you need in the cord. If you can wrap the cord around the spindle by flexing the bow, the bow is too flexible and the cord will slip on the spindle on the "push" stroke as the bow bends. My best results come from using a willow bow that is dry and hard. It hardly flexes at all, and I adjust the tension in the cord by gripping it along with the bow. Basically you make the bow by attaching the cord at each end, but with the cord slack enough to allow a couple of turns around the spindle without it becoming completely taut. Then grip the bow in your hand, extend your fore-finger and pull back on the cord with it to add tension. This way you can adjust the tension as you use the bow, tightening the cord if it starts to slip on the spindle without having to stop and adjust things which allows any heat you might have built up in the wood to die away. The term "bow" had me confused for ages when I was trying to get the bow-drill to work. The thing looks like a bow and is made of a bit of wood and a bit of string just like a bow, but for it to work well enough for me to make a coal with it doesn't want to be anything like as flexible a thing as you could fire arrows with!

Not seeing the set up and not knowing how well you know the importance of things I feel I should add that you need to be sure that the spindle is a straight as possible too. If it's got any bend (or flex) in it, it simply will not spin. If it will happily roll across a table-top it should be fine.

Hope this helps. It's a fantastic feeling when you see that first self-made coal glowing like a little magic pheonix egg in it's nest of black dust.

 

[Ogri the trog]

Pumbaa,
How have you got the top end set up?
Try tapering the top of the spindle to a point like a pencil with a bit of a blunt tip to it. Then try using a green wood bearing block so that the sap acts as a lubricant - you can also use waxy leaves from laurel or holly to ease the friction in the top end.
As was mentioned in another thread, pallet wood might be a bit too thick to use untill you've nearly drilled right through it, either split it thinner or try a different piece of wood altogether.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[BobFromHolland]

I have only today succeeded in reproducing my first fire by friction success. I have been spending most of last weeks evenings trying :aargh4:, but only succeeded after replacing my drill for a peice of willow.
I got black dust 9 out of 10 times, but couldn't get it to smoulder either. I have used several hearth wood types, some produced smoke and dust real quick, others took longer.
My last drill was producing a glassy tip occasionally, so I think this drill contained resin. I can't figure out why the temp wouldn't get high enough.

My conclusion so far: willow drills rule!


By the way, my effords have left my fingers smoked (yellow tips, smelling like smoke especially when wet). I like it, because now it reminds me of my success , but my wife won't let me in bed smelling like this .
Have any of you got a working cleaning method?

 

[bushtuckerman]

Clean it off?? you must be kidding, sleep on the sofa or something, it's the smell of the proverbial Gods It really is unique though isn't it?

I like your conclusion, tbh i just go the whole hog and make the hearth from the same bit of wood as the willow drill, keeps it simple and maximises your chances. Compared to other woods i've used, willow is p*ss easy, and that's saying something for friction fire-lighting (i better get out and practise after that bold statement...).

I was using a hazel set for ages and getting no where, the first time i used a willow set i got a coal.

I wouldn't have thought the glasy look is due to resin, if we are talking about the same thing, because it happens with willow and just about every other wood type i've used. I think it's because you are heating the surface of the wood and compacting it at the same time, if it gets hot enough the shine will burn off. Before i started cutting green bearing blocks i tried to get the top end of the spindle to become glassy with the bearing block eye so that friction was minimised for the short amount of time you need it, it's tricky to do and hinges on varying the pressure and speed: very fast with little pressure usually produces something glass like, with various adjustments according to the wood. If the business end was getting glassy then that could have been the reason why it wasn't hot enough. Though oddly that harsh squeek you can often get means it's rising in temp pretty quick i think, but it is all pretty confusing.

I have often produced 'grainy' rolled bits of dust which conglomerate to form a coal, i think this could be typical of willow on willow, and since that is what i normally use it would make sense, but have normally interpreted them as a sign of success whatever. Maybe they are particulary hot when produced by the rolling action, but when cool they are more difficult to ignite because of the total surface area reduction. Also though, when it has happened before i have had a pretty large coal form, so maybe it has just been more efficient at retaining heat.

A rigid bow is a good point Longstrider.

 

[Ogri the trog]

BobFromHolland,
You gotta have some seroius words with your mrs. She has to be convinced that she'll be sleeping with a living god, a hero amongst men, an honest to goodness friction firmaker.

Welcome to the forum and the club.

Ogri the trog

 

[demographic]

Pallets are typically made from hard woods such as oak. If you dont have an opportunity to go collect some wild wood I would go to the lumber store and pick up a poplar board.

Where do you get the posh pallets?

I have never seen one made from oak yet, (that's in the UK though) and I see quite a lot as I work as a carpenter on building sites.

Over here they seem to be made from the nastiest cheap pine avaliable.

 

[Tadpole]

Where do you get the posh pallets?

I have never seen one made from oak yet, (that's in the UK though) and I see quite a lot as I work as a carpenter on building sites.

Over here they seem to be made from the nastiest cheap pine avaliable.

A lot of pallets that come in from China are made of hardwoods like oak, 70% of pallets made in America are made from hard woods.
40 percent of all hardwood is consumed by the pallet industry; America is currently trying to protect the hardwood pallet makers from cheaper softwood imports. They are also trying to make the Chinese heat treat all their pallets in an effort to stop exotic insects from hitching a lift into the unprotected woodlands of America

 

[demographic]

A lot of pallets that come in from China are made of hardwoods like oak, 70% of pallets made in America are made from hard woods.
40 percent of all hardwood is consumed by the pallet industry; America is currently trying to protect the hardwood pallet makers from cheaper softwood imports. They are also trying to make the Chinese heat treat all their pallets in an effort to stop exotic insects from hitching a lift into the unprotected woodlands of America

Wow, I honestly have never seen a hardwood pallet yet, over here they all seem to be nasty cheap pine or even a weird hybrid of MDF and chipboard. i8f they were hardwood they would dissapear off site a lot more

 

[BobFromHolland]

BobFromHolland,
You gotta have some seroius words with your mrs. She has to be convinced that she'll be sleeping with a living god, a hero amongst men, an honest to goodness friction firmaker.

Welcome to the forum and the club.

Ogri the trog

:notworthy Thanks!

I must say I get a lot of strange faces from people when they see me sniffing my fingertips with a glazy look of extacy (there must be an awfull lot of people who succeeded already!)

 

[match]

sure your bowstring is really quite tight - to the point that you have to push quite hard to twist the spindle in, and if you let go it will 'ping off' with some force. Any looser and you'll just get slipping and rubbing which wastes energy and can ruin your bowstring.

Also, as someone has already said, carve a small shallow starting hole into your hearth, and a more pointy one at the bearing block end - then maake your spindle's hearth end flat and your bearing end pointy. Lubricate the bearing block end well.

Ideally you should be putting as much pressure onto your block as possible, since greater pressure will give you more friction - however each set requires a different amount of pressure, so start out with just enough pressure to hold everythig in place, begin bowing regularly and gradually increase the pressure until it starts to stick - just before this point is where you should be drilling for a coal.

Good luck with your fire-starting!

 

[Nemisis]

Re pallet timber look for the Euro pallets I was told they were made from oak I know for there size they are conciderably heavier than many other types
Dave.

 

[8thsinner]

I am not exactly an expert........ yet.
But I would say that because of the resins in the birch it will never be able to get a fire going.
As people have said go with the willow.
Personally I use cedar and something else as the base, not even sure what but it works. I am very proud of my set, I went out in the wild picked a few things, tested them and now everything works perfectly. I think it might be beech but I could be wrong.

If willow doesn't work for you then just try another.

Heres things I wouldn't do without now either.
Egyptian fire bow, wrap the cord around the spindle at least three times, this works for me almost every time.

And a few tips which may or may not work for you.

Make sure your spindle is perfectly verticle.

If you are hearing that high pitched squeaky sound it is because of vibrations caused, move the wrap further down the spindle, How ever if the spindle is perfectly straight then your holding it non verticlaly.

Make sure the spindle is on the outside of the cord, gaining you more distance and revs. ie not inside the D shape.

Definatly take your time making the notch in the first pace, don't be afraid to use quite a thick base board, mine is almost 3/4" and still works fine. This way you can really drill into it to make sure it is a good fit.

Viewed from the side, when you cut your notch you can make it not as wide at the top, maybe 1/9 of a slice, moving down to the standard 1/7 slice, Hope that bit makes sense.

The notch is almost the most important thing there, spend time getting it made properly.

Make sure your hand hold is a good one, if it's not your likely to keep getting sore knuckles, either that or you are using far too much poiwer in order to keep it in place.

Use your middle finger and fourth finger to grip the string tightly, you can vary the pressure on the bow this way by just squeezing.

Make sure also your knee, wrist etc are locked into place and are not sliding all over the place.

Just tested it, what ever my base is it works, I got a good amount of smoke in 15 seconds, even though the cord is getting a little loose and migrating now it still doesn't slip. With the triple wrap. But also in order to tighten it up just that little bit, tie an over hand knot in the string near the loop end. (I always loop one end and tie on the other)

Remember the six P's
Prior Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance


And good luck. When you get it you will be so happy with yourself.