Is it possible to light a fire inside of a small, enclosed, one person survival shelter such as a small tepee? Will the smoke level be too low? I know you need a opening at the top and a draught. And the shelter going up in flames aside would it be possible?
fire in small shelter
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I have had a few fires in my Arran 5. On a platform on the ground I found it to be a pain as the smoke level was so low that I needed to lie down or become a kipper. On second try I was more careful with fuel and stripped bark etc to reduce smoke. it was then a bit more bearable. It then just over heated and took the cap off the top of the tipi and left to door open create enough draw and regulate temperature.
One thing to remember is a fire is going to use Oxygen beware of carbon monoxide in a small enclosed space.
One thing to remember is a fire is going to use Oxygen beware of carbon monoxide in a small enclosed space.
I have found out just how important dry fuel is when having a fire in the tipi 
That said, when the fire settles to glowing embers the comfort is immeasurable
The other thing of course, if it's an open fronted shelter, then the fire stays out and radiates heat in...without the smoke, hopefully....
That said, when the fire settles to glowing embers the comfort is immeasurable
The other thing of course, if it's an open fronted shelter, then the fire stays out and radiates heat in...without the smoke, hopefully....
If you have a shovel you can start the fire outside. A big one, producing lots of embers. And then carry the smouldering embers inside the shelter (with the shovel). That way you won't have any smoke, and you don't risk setting the roof on fire if it's low. You will need to feed the smouldering embers, causing small fires but you will have enough heat to dry the wood before using it.
I know it's been mentioned but make sure you're well ventilated and don't go to sleep with the glowing embers in an enclosed space, charcoal and smoldering embers pump out enough carbon monoxide to kill you! people have fallen asleep and not woken up using a disposable barbeque inside a tent. I always take along a carbon monoxide detector/alarm now for added peace of mind in my tipi.
I know it might seem like i'm being over cautious so here's an article giving a couple of the many examples of how it can go horribly wrong if you aren't careful..
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4832a1.htm
I know it might seem like i'm being over cautious so here's an article giving a couple of the many examples of how it can go horribly wrong if you aren't careful..
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4832a1.htm
happy camper said:
Your post really got me thinking!
According to what I can recollect from chemistry, the basics of combustion is that oxygen and fuel produces carbon dioxide and heat (heat being needed in the first place). If the combustion isn't complete, i.e. it's lacking oxygen, it will produce carbon monoxide. Since there is no such thing as 100% effeciency in real life, some carbon monoxide will always be produced. And with little oxygen the main product will probably be CO.
With this in mind, and reading a bit critical (as you always should) I find the article not really that relevant. First of all, it's doesn't deal with open fires (I admit that the charcoal grill is completly compareable with the embers I suggested). And secondly the cases mentioned all dealt with zipped up camper tents.
The shelter mentioned was a tipi, and the heat source an open fire. The tipi will allow more air to circulate, and it can't be zipped up like a synthetic tent. If there is a sufficient supply of oxygen there will be little CO produced. But I can agree that in a one man tipi (never seen one) the space may be to small.
I haven't slept in a one-man shelter with a fire, but I have used embers in two-man spruce tipis (which is a PITA to build) and canvas tipis, and I have slept in a lot of lavvos with open fires, I have used meth stoves in snow bivaucs (not for heat though), and spent countless nights in the old fashioned swedish army tents (which are one pole lavvos where the pole doubles as a chimney) with wood burning stoves. And I haven't died a single time!
I will hand it to you though that nobody ever got killed by being catious. And if your unsure, don't sleep with a fire. Feeling dizzy? Can't light a fire? Ventilate, and put the fire out. Provided you have good ventilation and a good height, fire shouldn't be a problem. I will gladly be corrected, and if somebody feels unsafe with a fire I won't blame them. But until now, I've been fine, and the comfort a fire brings greatly overweighs the risk IMHO.
I'm sure every different set up will produce a different set of conditions, but when you're talking about never waking up again, it's probably worth erring on the side of caution. IMO.
Either of the Woodgas/reverse downdraft gasifyers (links below) would burn with very little smoke!
http://www.garlington.biz/Ray/WoodGasStove/
http://www.imrisk.com/woodgas/ddstove.htm
http://www.garlington.biz/Ray/WoodGasStove/
http://www.imrisk.com/woodgas/ddstove.htm
Hibig_swede said:Your post really got me thinking!
According to what I can recollect from chemistry, the basics of combustion is that oxygen and fuel produces carbon dioxide and heat (heat being needed in the first place). If the combustion isn't complete, i.e. it's lacking oxygen, it will produce carbon monoxide. Since there is no such thing as 100% effeciency in real life, some carbon monoxide will always be produced. And with little oxygen the main product will probably be CO.
With this in mind, and reading a bit critical (as you always should) I find the article not really that relevant. First of all, it's doesn't deal with open fires (I admit that the charcoal grill is completly compareable with the embers I suggested). And secondly the cases mentioned all dealt with zipped up camper tents.
The shelter mentioned was a tipi, and the heat source an open fire. The tipi will allow more air to circulate, and it can't be zipped up like a synthetic tent. If there is a sufficient supply of oxygen there will be little CO produced. But I can agree that in a one man tipi (never seen one) the space may be to small.
I haven't slept in a one-man shelter with a fire, but I have used embers in two-man spruce tipis (which is a PITA to build) and canvas tipis, and I have slept in a lot of lavvos with open fires, I have used meth stoves in snow bivaucs (not for heat though), and spent countless nights in the old fashioned swedish army tents (which are one pole lavvos where the pole doubles as a chimney) with wood burning stoves. And I haven't died a single time!
I will hand it to you though that nobody ever got killed by being catious. And if your unsure, don't sleep with a fire. Feeling dizzy? Can't light a fire? Ventilate, and put the fire out. Provided you have good ventilation and a good height, fire shouldn't be a problem. I will gladly be corrected, and if somebody feels unsafe with a fire I won't blame them. But until now, I've been fine, and the comfort a fire brings greatly overweighs the risk IMHO.
I agree with what you are saying and i think an open fire is one of life's true pleasures, i also agree that it can be perfectly safe to have one inside a suitable shelter, i do it regularly, but it's only safe when people are aware of the risks and act accordingly.
It's always good to read with a critical eye but the link was only intended as one example in many, and i'd say the article is certainly relevant in that it shows what can and often does happen in an enclosed shelter without adequate ventilation.
I only thought it worth mentioning as carbon monoxide is very difficult to detect until it's too late and the potential problems with fires are very serious, and though problems are easily avoided with good airflow and ventilation, the issues aren't necessarily common knowledge or obvious.
The dangers would be essentially the same with any incomplete combustion, be it a barbeque or an open fire, especially as the fire begins to die down and smolder after you have stopped feeding it and fallen asleep. When it is cold enough to want a fire in your shelter, there is also a natural tendency for people to close the doors and seal out the cold, which even in a relatively large shelter can be fatal.
Anyway, i'm i'll stop waffling on now, my posts here aren't intended as a criticism or correction, i am just offering a word of caution in case somebody reading isn't aware of the potential problems, and it's hard to avoid risks if you don't know what they are.
best wishes
