Copper based "anti rot" treatment (s) applied to army issue Millbank bags....

[Sullivan Drystone]

Having done a search and skim reading the results list (I didn't read the entirety of every thread that mentioned millbank bags) it seems that the questions I'm about to ask hasn't been covered yet. Apologies in advance if they have.
My first question is- when did the copper based anti rot/mildew treatment applied to the fabric of British Army miillbank bags stop being used?

I bought one (with no knowledge of this/these treatment(s) and have read since,that there are (potential) toxicity concerns.....and that these led to a) the end of their being issued
b)they returned to issue after the treatment(s) were either removed or improved (I've forgotten the source of this info,but I do remember this point wasn't clear).
I also read that now they are no longer issued,but for other reasons (that I also remember went unspecified).
My second question is - the bag was issued in 2003,from it's pristine (aside from a name in permie marker ink) condition I can only assume it has hardly been used,so is it,from the date,issued after the toxicity concerns had been addressed and therefore safe to use?
All and any light anyone can shed on this would be of great help and enormously appreciated.
Many Thanks in advance,
Jamie

 

[Falstaff]

News to me but
I found an article that there was an awareness in 1990 that some biocides were not as safe as previously thought, and new ones needed to be found. http://fungus.org.uk/nwfg/rot.htm.
I would have thought that by 2003 they would have come up with either something safer or stopped using any treatment at all.
I see the Bushcraft Store mentions this, and that the fabric in their bags is made by the same original firm. Presumably if you find out who that firm is, you can ask them. If so, please let the forum know.

 

[Sullivan Drystone]

Hi Falstaff,thanks for your reply, the link and additional info. I will of course post any relevant (hopefully definitive) info I get on the forum. No good keeping it to myself,as the esteemed Kool Moe Dee once said "Knowledge is King"!!

 

[Sullivan Drystone]

I just remembered the manufacturer is identified on one of the labels on the bag,along with the nato stock number!
They are called "J & S Franklin Ltd" I shall try finding their contact info and asking them.
Will report back any and all useful info....

 

[Sullivan Drystone]

Well,progress of sorts....just called J&S Franklin Ltd and spoke to a nice chap called Paul. He asked if I can send a photo of the label (that has the date of manufacture and nato stock number [NSN] on it ) and he will get back to me after the Easter Bank Holidays are away. So hopefully on Tuesday I will have some more information.

 

[MrEd]

Blimey my Millbank bag is so old it doesn’t have a nato stock number. I am sure it is wartime dated, will dig it out and check.
Used it so much all the toxins are probably gone by now!!!

 

[Falstaff]

By chance I'm slightly ahead of you, as I found a link via the Ray Mears Blog. I received a prompt reply from Rupert Brown who "restored" the Millbank bag to the market; herewith;

Thanks for your email and for the kind feedback on the Brown bags, much appreciated.

No problem, I am fortunate to still work with the original mill that wove the Millbank canvas. I had access to all the specs and haz chem info on the original canvas. Cuprammonium is a fungicide that is found in a lot of products including things like fence/shed preserviving paints. CA was added at a rate of 1.0-1.5% of the finished fabric. It was added to the canvas as a fungicide to help prevent mould and mildew forming on on the bags if they were stored wet or damp. It was removed towards the end of production around 2006-2010 due to it being potentially harmful.

The Brown bags have no rot proof treatment as I don't want to risk adding harmful chemicals, it is environmentally cleaner as well. I try and make it clear that it is important that when you are finished with the Brown bag it is important to wash inside and out with clean water and dry thouroughly before storage. To date I haven't had any problems. If you need to reply to the forum please feel free to tag me as supplying the info.

I'm sorry I can't offer wild camping places. The site I use is private and heavily controlled by the owner.

I hope that helps. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Best regards

Rupert Brown t/a Brown's Bushcraft

 

[Sullivan Drystone]

Smashing!
That's a very comprehensive and authoritative answer.
Shame for my 2003 bag......Oh well. I thought I had water sorted (bag,then boil/bag then chemical or bag then grayl or similar-depending on circumstances).
Now I will have to consider whether to get another bag with a later,safer issue date or stick with mine and invest in,or rather give myself an excuse to invest in a secondary,pathogen (0.02 micron) removal system that deals also with heavy metals......
Interesting to contrast one man's enthusiasm,knowledge and willingness to share it,,with the less nimble big company,where the knowledge is there,but harder to find and it's responsiveness can be heavily influenced by timing/constrained by statute ie : the bank holiday.
Thanks Falstaff!!

 

[TLM]

Read this with interest and did some Ging; result more confused: cuprammonium was used in large quantities for making viscose fiber and apparently still is used in undergarments. Also got results that copper treated fabrics are used in pillow covers. Various copper compounds have been used in treating fabrics, packing material and wood.

So a question for the resident chemist, what is this about?

 

[Danceswithhelicopters]

It's worth remembering that these things weren't added for giggles back in the day. The problems from fungal growth outweighed the risk from the fungicide. These were military and expedition items and risk managed accordingly.

 

[Falstaff]

Yes, did some seaching myself, initially confusing. A powdered version has been used for a long while in making fabrics, but a new water based liquid formulation was patented by BP in 1978. This is the mix used as a general fungicide wash for fences etc, and added to fabrics like canvas to prevent mildew and mould.

It appears that it took advances in science, specifically nanotechnology, to catch up and recognise the health risks. The earliest research papers I have seen referenced were in the early 2000's, so the MOD or manufacturer reacted fairly promptly.

Interestingly, most of the research seems to have been driven by a concern about the increasing levels of environmental copper/metals usage/pollution at a nano-level: "development of nanotechnology and subsequent applications has increased the exposure of nanoparticles (NPs) to the environment and human beings. The occurrence of NPs in the environment is of great significance regarding their impact on human health, hence nanotechnology coined with toxicology give rise to new term ‘nanotoxicology’."

So much for the wonders of modern tech & industry, and no way to avoid it. - since these NP's seem to affect the key soft organs of the body I personally suspect they lie at the root of a lot of the increases in cancers, infertility, birth/child health and other ills.

 

[MrEd]

That’s quite a big assumption step there.

 

[Falstaff]

That’s quite a big assumption step there.

yeess, just my pet theory/suspicion, but when a lot of specific science specialists are all coming up with seperate research results and they all show harm to the body, I tend to think there's something in it. But yes, I might well be wrong.

 

[Sullivan Drystone]

On reading a recommendation recently for using colloidal silver in water purifying (Army Rumour Service or bottom,their name not mine!) It seems there are is a similar level of concern regarding nano/cellular interaction and potential toxicity of silver too. Direct ingestion is known to be toxic and nanos usage in disrupting RNA in target cells (cancer,viruses...) is being experimented with.The nano particles shapes and coatings (!) affect their vaying ability to penetrate cells,particularly it seems organ tissue. I didn't read on it for long and various excerpts from papers came up when I typed in "colloidal silver in water purification" Referring to the previous post,I am a precautionary principle type and also think that the rise of the illnesses listed along with the proliferation of chemicals, derivatives and their associated synthetic products (some research into which is very old,basic and perfunctory or worse yet,suspicious is a shaky basis for having them declared safe by regulatory bodies) is no coincidence. Daily exposure in nearly all domestic environments and most work ones to the infinite number of substance combinations and reactions facilitated by the proliferation of chemical products in regular use means we are in a centuries spanning,global experiment on ourselves.
And then there are the twin concerns of the adverse sides pharmacological proliferation and of ultra processed factory produced "food", some leading investors in these being former tobacco conglomerates......."food" that is targeted via MRI scanned responses (not tasting at a table with paper to answer questions on) at stimulating the same brain areas active in addiction. Also designed to circumvent the bodies appetite/satiation mechanism and be available on demand as advertising shifts focus from sit down meal times,to dynamic snacking "on the go".
I think making (large) precautionary assumptions in the face of such developments is sensible.

 

[slaine_23]

the bag,along with the nato stock number

A powdered version has been used for a long while in making fabrics, but a new water based liquid formulation was patented by BP in 1978. This is the mix used as a general fungicide wash for fences etc, and added to fabrics like canvas to prevent mildew and mould.

I have a green millbank bag which has a stock number, I’ll search to find what the number means but if there’s an obvious answer that can be sJared is be grateful.

Does this also stop the possibility of making a mill bank copy out of canvas cloth, eg I have a working copy made from old canvas jeans. If a bag - or other canvas material - has these compounds, can they be removed?

 

[Toddy]

I used to do a lot of natural dyeing. Dyeing uses mordants. These are metals that help dye chemically bond to fabrics.
There are five in common usage. Alum, Iron, Copper, Tin and Chrome.

I have huge concerns about the safety of mordants, and I had a big well funded project to organise and knew that I would be using a lot of mordants.
So, I thought about it and then phoned the local sewage works and asked for advice. They got hold of the engineer responsible for the quality of the outflow from the sewage works, and he asked where I stayed, I told him, a mile away, and he said, put the kettle on and I'll come by and he did, and we blethered.

Basically he said Alum gets used to flocculate the peat particles in our drinking water (it comes from up on the Lanark moors) to help it settle before it hits the filter screens. Some comes through, not enough to be in any way a health hazard, but the sewage works are set up to deal with it anyway.

Iron he laughed at me, he said, half the women in the country take iron tablets and you lot excrete most of it, we deal with it

Copper he said was slightly more problematic, it is toxic in strength but most domestic central heating system use copper and so do older hot water systems, and enough leeches into the sewage system that they have to be aware and careful with it.
So long as I use my mordant bath to exhaustion, he didn't see me causing any problems.

Tin is scary really. It gives beautiful sharp bright colours, but it forms stable organs-metallic compounds that are both toxic and persistent in the environment. Roman mine workings are still toxic.
I get good colours anyway, I'm not poisoning the world to get a brighter orange. I don't use tin.

Chrome.....chrome is a nightmare and it's so commonplace. It causes feminisation of the aquatic life at the bottom end of the food chain, it can destroy entire ecosystems, and it's persistent.
I don't use chrome and I am very snippy with any 'natural dyer' who does.

The common thread throughout all of this is that there is very little that is not harmful in strength, and much that even in minute quantities is still peristently toxic.
Copper is good stuff, as an anti-fouling agent it saved ships and commerce and lives, but the reality is that it is toxic.

Someone earlier posted about silver; it's a really good topical anti-biotic, but it's not good ingested, and not good ingested in any strength or long term. Look up argyria. It's very real.


I honestly believe that if you keep your millbank bag clean it ought not need copper. The problem is that the bags are mostly made of heavy cotton. Cotton is a thirsty fabric, makes a great towel, but that damp attracting in our climate means mildew so the army had to do something to stop the mould. They used a copper wash. It works, it's relatively safe at the level used.

The answer is simple though; find a different cloth and make the bag out of that.


M

 

[MrEd]

Anything is a poison, it’s just a matter of dosage

 

[slaine_23]

Copper is good stuff, as an anti-fouling agent it saved ships and commerce and lives, but the reality is that it is toxic.

I’ve read where to avoid moss growth on a roof, one puts a line of stripped copper wire near the apex, the run off will be sufficiently toxic to kill the moss. Not sure how effective this is btw, though it was something I want to test out once I get up the minerals to go up on the roof.
But when you combine that notion with the point about copper water piping it seems slightly contradictory.
I suppose it’s a question of exposure and balance of risk.

 

[Falstaff]

Don't think the strip on a roof will work as suggested - it oxidises (green) which then seals the copper underneath.
Copper pipe, internally, can be affected by a number of chemicals in the water, and the cathodic corrosions between the mixed metals in a central heating system leads to the well known black sludge in the bottom of radiators. Tap water supply varies, Hard and soft water, Scvales covering it up, vs the various chemicals Toddy's engineer was referring to. One of the reasons why I always use a water filter jug.
Besides Alum as a floculant, aluminium powder is also used, and is harmful if added in the wrong proportions.
I know lots of claims have been made that it is not a cause of Alzheimers, Dementia, etc but I'm not convinced. Cooking acidic things in aluminium pans is not good. (why I changed to a steel jam pan). Since I grew up ingesting all of these things, I suspect I've had my quota and have no wish to raise the odds any further than I absolutely have to.