Chasing the Ember

[pace]

Evening all, I need a bit of help...

I have been trying for a few days now to make fire by friction, and failing. I've tried various woods including poplar, oak, hazel and some others i dont even recognise.

I have been using a drill (of the cordless persuasion) to test and see if anything is likely to come of it, rather than giving myself blisters without any promise of a result... and aside from a lot of smoke and black powder, have failed to produce anything with potential.

I plan to sort it with the drill first, get that bit figured, then move on to hand drilling.

I am using a piece about 1.5cm diameter fixed into the drill bit, and sharpened to a rounded point. I have been using a slot in the side of the dip in the hearth board to catch the ember, but there has so far only been black dust.

I have also been wondering about the method involving a groove and a scraping action... is that likely to prove any easier than the bow drill?

 

[leon-b]

i have managed to get an ember once, i have been practicing frequently but still no luck oh well i will keep trying and watching this thread with interest it may help me aswell
leon

 

[sharp88]

Yeah I'v tried alot also. Tried loads of stuff.....Mors Kochanski reckons willow is the best. Im yet to try willow. So far I'v only got a smoulder and sweatted out a load of cakes - if all else fails stick some potasium pomanginate in the bowl, stick some sugar in there aswel n grind it up with the drill. Should light up nicely - but thats not the object of it - still a useful thing to know.

 

[rich59]

A very warm welcome Pace to Bushcraftuk. Nice to have you on board. I see you are already getting stuck in. Fab.

(You might like to post in the new members section to introduce yourself).

The Power Drill.

I also experimented with this in the early stages. I found one problem with the power drill - it tended to scatter the black dust rather than letting it collect in the notch. This can be solved if you can slow down the drill to the sort of speed that bow or hand drill can attain.

You usually need, in doing any form of drill friction fire, the notch to be piled up with dust up to the lip of the depression before you can get a coal. (There are exceptions - e.g. Mullein but that is not important for now.) Then a sausage of the new hot dust just moves sideways onto the top of the pile rather than falling. If enough hot dust rapidly collects before it cools then it should form a coal.

Make sure the wood is really bone dry.

Find the wood combination that gives you the most powdery punk - anything gritty or fibrous will be more difficult.

With the power drill hardly press down at all. Let the spinning do all the work.

 

[Ogri the trog]

Welcome to BCUK Pace,
You've joined the club - not just the forum but those that have tried in vain to get a friction ember using an electric drill
Some small words of advice - firstly, ditch the oak, its way too hard for most folk to use in friction firelighting. Try a hazel drill on a dry cedar or "palletwood" hearth.
Next, ditch the cordless drill - you are unlikely to have one out in the woods, so practice with the kit you are most likely to be able to make when you are out and about.
Then find as many descriptions of Bowdrill firelighting as you can find, read every word and try to imagine the frustration that you go through before getting you're first successful ember.
Lastly, if there is a charitable member of this board in your area, make the effort to go and see them - it is infinately easier to get an ember under instruction than by trial and error. There will also be someone there who has been through it and can record your facial expression when you succeed

Good luck

Ogri the trog

 

[pace]

Thank you all for your replies.

I will try and find some hazel and cedar and see how that goes. Other than changing wood it seems all I would be doing is repeating the same process with the same results.. there must be something those of us who don't succeed are doing wrong?

Makes you wonder how anyone came up with this in the first place...

Just to get an idea, how long have people been trying?

Can anyone reccomend a particular site that describes the technique well?

 

[Ogri the trog]

Makes you wonder how anyone came up with this in the first place...

Just to get an idea, how long have people been trying?

Can anyone reccomend a particular site that describes the technique well?

Erm when the technique was invented, electric drills were several thousand years in the future.

I had been trying for about two years on and off before doing a Bowdrill Workshop when the mystery vaporised and the reality became the norm.

If you can watch the Ray Mears DVD of Bushcraft series 1 or 2, the episode with himself and a canoeing buddy also named Ray - its a pretty good insight into the frustrations that we all went through

Again, good luck.

Ogri the trog

 

[pace]

Don't suppose there's anyone in Somerset who has had success with this?

Or any bow drill workshops...

 

[rich59]

I have had 2 goes at power drill fire.

The first one I used a large drill to make the notches - so I had rounded notches in the edge of the board. I then started the depression with the drill as well. The board was untreated commercial pine. I then used an elder drill bit and set my drill to its lowest speed and pressed gently. Smoke came quickly and black powder. Glowing flecks of black powder appeared in the notch - on the walls. This was quite different to any experience with the bow or hand drill. I wonder if the difference was the shape of the notch? The rounded notch sides could catch high velocity micro coals.

On the second occasion I was trying to get oak to work as a drill (one of the most difficult in the world apparently). The hearth board was a hardwood. This time I had conventional V shaped notch. I drilled and drilled and drilled. The black stuff (very coarse) piled up and up and up. When the pile was really huge it formed a coal.

So, maybe just let the black stuff pile up a lot more than you have? Or try an elder drill. Or try a round notch.

 

[pace]

had been trying for about two years on and off before doing a Bowdrill Workshop when the mystery vaporised and the reality became the norm.

Was there a particular thing you found you were doing wrong?

 

[Nod]

I had no joy at all until Fenlander showed me on a trip out one day.

I use a hazel drill and a willow board.

Before my instruction from Fenlander I was going at it way too fast, ended up tired out, grumpy, frustrated and sweating and unable to proceed any further.

Make sure you position is correct, board under the foot, left arm supported by the leg etc etc. Place the hearth under the notch, and make sure you have a small twig ready to help ease out the ember. Make sure your tinder ball is prepared and to hand nearby.

Start off fairly slow till you get a decent rhythm going, and the dust will start to pile in the notch on the board, you may start to smell smoke, now steadily increase the speed till you see smoke, don't go mad, just bit by bit till the smoke comes.

Once you see smoke, go faster for about another 20-30 strokes of the bow. You will now have a big pile of smoking dust in the notch and on the hearth.
Stop Drilling, very carefully, remove the bow and drill from the board being careful not to upset the dust.

It should still be smoking happily, and you can now get the twig and carefully roll the dust onto the hearth.

This is also where I went wrong. If I couldn't spot a glowing red ember I thought I had failed. But it doesn't look like that at first, it just looks like dust. Once on the hearth, shield it with you hand and very gently blow on it.

Some of the dust will be blown away, but you will start to see your ember revealing itself in the dust. Once you see it, carefully move it to the tinder and you are away.

Really the best advice I could give is:
Don't go too fast at first and don't go hell for leather at the end, nice and steady but with a bit of pace is best.
Don't worry of there is nothing glowing straight away, take your time and the glow will come from out of the dust.


Hope this helps

 

[Ogri the trog]

Was there a particular thing you found you were doing wrong?

No one thing in particular but when someone is teaching you every step; from making the components to getting your flame, its all about increasing the chances of every step succeeding. Getting the drill at the right angle, the right tension on the bowstring, how much downward pressure to use, when to save energy and when to go-for-broke! The little steps that complete the journey.
Once the skill is learnt and practiced, you change little bits (types of wood, length of bow etc) to gain the experience. You can also re-read the descriptions and see the hidden meaning behind all the pointers - by which time it is of course too late

You will get there, it just might take a little longer than you want just now.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[Montivagus]

Yep! I reckon your drill is just too fast. A glowing ember is only formed if the dust you are making is half burnt. If your drill is throwing out smoke alright but nothing is coming of it and the dust is black - the dust is fully burnt and can’t form an ember. Slow to start and maybe use a wider drill.

 

[Graham_S]

i tend to drill slowly and steadily until i get the smoke coiling round the drill.
then press a little harder and drill faster for 30 strokes (1 stroke is back and forth once).
i use a pallet wood hearth and a willow drill.
the drill is the thickness of my thumb.

i also "dovetail" my notch a little so it's narrower at the top than at the botttom.
not sure how much it helps, but it seems to work.

 

[rich59]

Yep! I reckon your drill is just too fast. A glowing ember is only formed if the dust you are making is half burnt. If your drill is throwing out smoke alright but nothing is coming of it and the dust is black - the dust is fully burnt and can’t form an ember. Slow to start and maybe use a wider drill.

Interesting analysis. It is possible the dust is over burnt. In that case I would suggest a SMALLER drill. The larger the drill the more the dust is burnt and vice versa. Maybe go under a centimetre. Brown/ black is the colour you would be looking to get.

 

[Montivagus]

Interesting analysis. It is possible the dust is over burnt. In that case I would suggest a SMALLER drill. The larger the drill the more the dust is burnt and vice versa. Maybe go under a centimetre. Brown/ black is the colour you would be looking to get.

I'm not sure about that...I think if you spread the same force over a larger cross sectional area you'll reduce the burn effect so slightly larger drill at the same revs will do better 2cm. However you're right, the colour of the dust you're producing is what you want to look for and in any case using an electric drill for a method developed for hand drilling is bound to skew your results I would have thought!

 

[Graham_S]

with a larger diameter drill, the outer edge of the drill is travelling faster than a narrower drill turning at the same rpm. it's going to reach a higher temperature for that reason alone.

also, if you only lister to one persons advice on this skill, listen to rich59. he's very good at this sort of thing.

 

[Earthpeace]

A good web on friction fire http://tions.net/CA256EA900408BD5/vwWWW/outdoor~03~052#friction

 

[pace]

Thank you all again for your help in this, I have spent some hours working on it since my last post. I'm waiting for a new job to start, so have a few days on my hands and want to get as far as I can before I have to start working again...

A few hours walk in the quantocks yesterday provided some new material which I have been trying... still in search of the elusive cedar, but a beech spindle is proving effective, at least as far as dust and smoke go, on a poplar hearth.

The electric drill has been retired, and I don't miss it... can get smoke in about 15 seconds by hand.

Below is a photo of what I have been using, including a shot just as the smoke starts to curl around the spindle... and exposing how I keep track of all this wood.

I have been using the slow and steady > full steam approach, and experimented varying the technique, bow length, string length.... hoping there may be some clues in the picture as to how I might improve this?

Cheers,

Matt (Pace)

 

[rich59]

Fab pictures.

I don't see a V notch and I wonder if the hearth is flat to the surface below. Here is some diagrams of the ideal setup for the notch. You will see that the notch goes vertically down to the under-surface with no cavity for the dust to disperse into under a rounded stick.

For a rounded stick as hearthboard it is best I find to split off the rounded surface above and below.

This any help?