Bio Ethanol - Methanol - Meths - Lots of Trangia Options and Confusion

[ex-member BareThrills]

Im a bit confused after reading the thread about Bio Ethanol suppliers thread.

1) If i understand it correctly bio ethanol burns cleanly, without any fumes and gives off nothing more than heat, steam and a small amount of co2

source http://www.econol.co.uk/ well they would say that i guess

2) Methanol is dirty disgusting stuff or thats what i mostly read whenever its mentioned

3) Methylated spirit is Ethanol with added Methanol to denature it? This is done to stop its alcohol consumption by winos.

So, should we all be switching our Trangias to Bio Ethanol as opposed to Meths or Methanol?

I know Bio ethanol is made from fermented vegetable matter but then Methanol used to be made from wood. so is Bio Ethanol only cleaner because its not going to release new co2 or is it cleaner because its not as nasty as the others in terms of what it gives off when burned.

If Bio Ethanol is as good as it seems them we could all be cooking up supper on the trangia in the front room with no bad smells etc.

Would the chemically enlightened please clear up some of the differences please

 

[Andy BB]

Casting my mind back many decades, surely ethanol is ethanol, regardless of how it is prepared? They don't actually stipulate exactly the chemical makeup of bioethanol, but presumably its 100% ethanol? IN which case they might fall foul of the liquor regulators! Have they added anything to prevent drinking? So until they tell us exactly what it is, a bit difficult to be certain.

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

that was my interpretation re chemical composition surely the substance is the same. The new breed of home fires fueled by this stuff are sold as zero odour no flue required units. IF its all its cracked up to be it could be a huge step forward.

For the purposes of experimentation, i will aquire some from B&Q and light some fires in the kitchen

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

from the Econol site

Flueless Burning

Bioethanol fires do not require a chimney like a normal gas or solid fuel fire. They can literally be placed anywhere either indoors or outdoors. When burnt bioethanol produces heat, a small amount steam and an even smaller amount of carbon dioxide, in fact the carbon dioxide emitted is only the equivalent of 2 burning candles!

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

Im also thinking Lavvu heater / cooker

 

[Andy BB]

The price looks pretty good - 24 litres for 66 pounds. Way cheaper than meths unless bought in bulk (or you buy it in France!)

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

Interestingly a bit of further research led me to this ceramic wool product on ebay which seems to be similar to carbon felt. seems to be resistant to over 1000c from what i can gather and will let the ethanol burn for twice as long

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Up-to-50-...den_Other_Fireplaces&var=&hash=item2323170574

no connection etc.

I feel the manufacture of a mega sized trangia coming on with ceramic wool filling

 

[rik_uk3]

Energy in fuel is set, it has what it has whatever way you use it will only give off the energy inherant in the fuel.

Take a look at
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Heat-Pal-...783?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51a240213f
I have one, burn methanol (<£1 a litre), will heat a medium tent and also you can slow cook/simmer

Have one of these too
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIGO-510...tEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item4ceac053d7

The old one is a bargain, they work just as well and are a bit retro being 60+ years old

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

Cheers Rik those are very interesting. Im with you on the energy potential im just thinking about the emissions of the fuel used and this bio gear is claiming a big step forward. I wouldnt want to be in a tent heated by meths or methanol as the smell is offputting if not bad for you but this might be different

 

[cbr6fs]

even smaller amount of carbon dioxide, in fact the carbon dioxide emitted is only the equivalent of 2 burning candles!

It does burn through a fair bit of oxygen though, so although the Carbon Dioxide is not a worry Carbon Monoxide will still form once the oxygen levels have dropped.

 

[rik_uk3]

What smell?

 

[bigroomboy]

its all the same, people put bio in front of anything these days just to try to sell anything. True it is more carbon neutral but in small quantities its not going to make any difference to the environment compared to the billions of liters of petrol consumed.

Methanol - Burns great especially when its cold, when in hot climes it can get a bit sooty as it tries to burn too fast. V Toxic liquid and vapor but the combustion fumes should be safe and clean.

Meths - Horrible stuff 90 - 95% ethanol but the rest is stuff to make it undrinkable but classically in this country we go crazy about it. It used to be methanol many moons ago but it is actually possible to separate the methanol out so now it is wood naptha which makes you violently sick. But then they add pyridine to make it smell and taste really bad and purple dye.

Industrially methylated spirit - As meths but only ethanol and wood naptha much nicer option. You need a licence which is stupid. saying you want to burn it will not be enough but say you want it for wood work and you should get it. If you burn a lot / for heating I would go with this.

bio/Ethanol - Burns very well but unless denatured subject to tax, as the tax is based on %vol then thats a lot of tax, therefore bioethanol nust be denatured see IMS or meths. If its not funky smelling or purple then it may well be the best cheapest option. Low toxicity if not denatured.

Isopropanol - rubbing alcohol from first aid kits works well in hot climes but expensive, I have to use this in spain because I can never find the proper stuff and the locals look at me strange when I ask for it.

I'll have to get some of the bioethanol to see how contaminated it is with added junk but if the fuel is the same then it burns the same and gives off the same combustion products.

That old heat pal looks great at that price shame its in the US

 

[PDA1]

Just read the labe. It IS denatured alcohol. This explains what denatured alcohol is - in detail.
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ntent&id=HMCE_CL_000263&propertyType=document
All ethanol is made from biomass, whether one calls it Ecohol or methylated spirits.
The above rules are from HM Customs. All denatured alcohol is essentially the same.

 

[Bucephalas]

Can't say I know much about the subject, but I buy 99.9% virgin methanol and its great. No smell at all, no soot. Works out at 49p ltr so I'll never go back to the smelly stuff.

 

[bigroomboy]

most of the alcohols used today come from oil, hydration of ethylene and steam reformation of methane

 

[PDA1]

Much of the alcohol used to mix with gasoline here in the USA is made from corn. It is heavily subsidised by the federal government. The unintended consequence has been to drive the cost of corn higher with less being available for human consumption (corn that is) so Tortillas have greatly increased in price. YOur Sir Richard branson is, i believe, heavily involved. There are much better ways of making/generating "renewable" energy than using acres of arable land to grow cereals (using copious amounts of water) to ferment to alcohol. The reduction in food growing capacity is, IMO, criminal.

 

[Mastino]

Im also thinking Lavvu heater / cooker

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C406%7C1066337%7C1066189&id=48897

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C406%7C1066337%7C1066189&id=48897

Thanks mastino this is just like Riks auction link. I already have a plan to build one from a stainless wine cooler

 

[Two Socks]

I think 'bioethanol' is the purest alcohol you can find that is easily available. In theory it should burn without smell, but reactions are never optimal and the compounds that manufactures put in to make it unfit for consumption give it some smell too when you burn it. I am not sure how much carbon-monoxide is formed. That of course greatly depends on how clean you can burn your ethanol. Blue flames indicate a clean burning of the ethanol where 1 ethanol molecule reacts with 3 oxygens to form 3 water molecules and two carbon-dioxides. In a clean stove and a fuel that would only contain alcohol and water this could be the case. Unfortunately the compounds that denature the alcohol do not seem to burn as clean, and we can only guess what gasses this emits.
Ethanol is a good fuel, but I wouldn`t use it inside much.

 

[treadlightly]

Interestingly a bit of further research led me to this ceramic wool product on ebay which seems to be similar to carbon felt. seems to be resistant to over 1000c from what i can gather and will let the ethanol burn for twice as long

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Up-to-50-...den_Other_Fireplaces&var=&hash=item2323170574

no connection etc.

I feel the manufacture of a mega sized trangia coming on with ceramic wool filling

This is all very interesting. I'll be watching this space keenly..