Ashdown forest fires today

[Darryl of Sussex]

BBC Radio Sussex have this morning (8am news) interviewed someone from NFU Mutual about ‘national forest fires’ and he has advised people in areas like Nutley and Ashdown Forest to “...report anyone acting suspiciously or if they see or smell smoke or fires.” You can lay money on that call to arms resulting in a complete over-reaction by locals and people on ‘the committee’ and lots of calling the Police about anyone ‘not from round ere’.

Sussex Fire Brigade said that “...one fire was started by accident”.

A local who was interviewed, said that Ashdown forest was tinder dry and that fires will become a more common issue if people throw lit cigarettes away.

A Brighton Green party soothsayer-cum-councillor, clearly with long-term memory issues (it’s all about equality over making sense), yesterday said that “climate change” caused the two fires in Ashdown Forest.

I fear examples will be made of people found with fire making gear as witch hunt logic will prevail over reason. Fire is fire.

 

[Van-Wild]

Crikey it's all kicking off down south eh? All this knee jerking is typical of us British. Why on earth would common bloody sense prevail when we can just go on local or national TV and spark (pun intended) a new revolution!

The underlying problem here is the same as it's always been= lack of respect for our nature. The general public enjoy our countryside in a number of ways, walking, mountain biking, bushcraft and even that monstrosity of our woodland that is 'Go Ape!'. I am of the opinion that our nature should be enjoyed by all. BUT! those who seek relaxation or adrenaline in our nature should learn to respect it and care for it!

Here endeth the lecture.... lol

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[Darryl of Sussex]

Here’s a clip from Youtube of the fire. It’s tragic that such a thing would happen at this time of year. I seem to have come over all Watership Down.

 

[Van-Wild]

Yes I agree it is rather bad news. But nature will recover. All in good time.

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[Darryl of Sussex]

Yes I agree it is rather bad news. But nature will recover. All in good time.

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Indeed it will but I can’t help but think about the controlled burns i’ve seen elsewhere. I recently went to a part of Ashdown forest near Wych Cross and there had been substantial gorse clearance, far beyond anything like a fire break. I wondered then why it hadn’t been burned instead of cleared. I’d really like a chat with someone who knows about such things as it’s all dead interesting.

 

[Nice65]

Indeed it will but I can’t help but think about the controlled burns i’ve seen elsewhere. I recently went to a part of Ashdown forest near Wych Cross and there had been substantial gorse clearance, far beyond anything like a fire break. I wondered then why it hadn’t been burned instead of cleared. I’d really like a chat with someone who knows about such things as it’s all dead interesting.

It may be the same reason farmers aren’t allowed to stubble burn anymore?

 

[Robson Valley]

Don't you ever have districts with days/weeks/months of total fire bans? Or even open camp fire bans?
Puts a damper on camping here but everybody knows what the risks are. You can die.
I don't want to go near places like that for fear of getting caught in the middle of a fire storm.

Does this look like your landscape managers are asleep at the switch?

Mountain Pine Beetle killed 18,000,000 ha pine here and the bugs are on the march across the Rockies into the Taiga on the other side.
So many bugs that they look like a rain storm on Doppler shift weather radar!
Last two summers, the biggest area burnt by wildfire in BC history. One single fire was 60 miles across.
Whole herds of cattle got burned alive in fires hot enough to melt glass.

 

[santaman2000]

To me that video looked more like a proper controlled burn than a destructive wildfire.

 

[Nomad64]

Indeed it will but I can’t help but think about the controlled burns i’ve seen elsewhere. I recently went to a part of Ashdown forest near Wych Cross and there had been substantial gorse clearance, far beyond anything like a fire break. I wondered then why it hadn’t been burned instead of cleared. I’d really like a chat with someone who knows about such things as it’s all dead interesting.

By no means an expert and no direct experience in the UK but in a past life, I found myself responsible for fire control on a large chunk of remote but environmentally sensitive African bush.

The regime there was to ensure that each part of the Park (about twice the size of the Brecon Beacons), was subjected to a controlled burn once every three years to ensure that the build up of dry combustible material was minimised. Controlled burns took place at the start of the dry season at a point where the bush would burn with a little encouragement using a witches’ brew of diesel and petrol but it was not so hot, dry and windy that things would get out of control - at least that is the theory.

Before the controlled burn, gangs of labourers would clear fire breaks around economically and ecologically sensitive areas and where appropriate do limited controlled burns to increase the protection.

Then the fun started - a patchwork of areas fitting in with the plan of work done in previous years were ignited using special “watering cans” containing the fuel and the resulting fire was monitored and where necessary beaten to keep it under control until it burnt itself out against a fire break or some natural feature. The expression “controlled burn” is a relative term and it can look quite dramatic and when the fire brigade consists of very brave local labourers most of whom are barefoot or wearing just flip flops and the equipment is just basic fire beaters or tree branches it does feel like it is being done on a wing and a prayer.







Once the preparations had been done, it was just a case of sitting back and waiting until the height of the dry season when the dryness, heat and strong winds will mean that any fires would be much more intense spread like - well you know! The source of the fires could be lightning strikes, poachers (the re-growth of green shoots after a fire attracts wildlife) or just accidents. It was quite stressful constantly scanning the horizon for smoke, and then deciding if where and when to try to tackle it.







The worst fire was caused by a slightly confused old lady crossing the Park In a bus or lorry who got off and lit a small fire by the roadside to cook a maize cob - within half an hour the fire was bigger than a football pitch and we were still damping down three weeks later. We stopped the fire with a backburn less than 50 metres from a very expensive wooden safari lodge. For a few hours I really regretted not getting written confirmation of the request not to do a controlled burn around it earlier in the year (because the charred ground would look unsightly) from the people responsible for it!





An exhilarating experience which we got through with no loss of life or limb but not one I would ever want to repeat in such a remote location with no back up and only the medical supplies I carried in the back of my Landy. However, the consensus from those who claimed to know about these things was that everything had been a great success, the wild fires that had happened were much less intense due to work done in previous years and that the regeneration and expansion of ecologically important forest areas was continuing.

Controlled burning is not without its critics but the argument in favour of it is that, at least in an African context, is that bushfires will occur anyway and by intervening and choosing the time of the burn, the intensity of the fires is reduced and the damage reduced.

The rapid regeneration after a fire suggests that most plant species are adapted to the cycle of fires, but watching vultures and storks picking through a still smoking landscape looking for a cooked meal is a bit apocalyptic.

I’m sure that nature in the UK can cope with wildfires although damage caused by fires which gets down into centuries old layers of peat is not going to be repaired quickly.

Edit for grammar/spelling.

PS To put it into context, the controlled burning we did was around 400 sq miles plus probably 100-200 sq miles of wildfires - Ashdown Forest is around 10 sq miles.

 

[Darryl of Sussex]

See that’s my understanding of how controlled burns work. Proactively deciding where and when but not reactively going into disaster mode due to incidents.

From what I know of the UK, there are controlled burns and clearances, for example where Grouse are being driven before being shot for ‘traditional corporate funded sports events’ on National Trust and privately owned land. So it could happen with a will but the soothsaying myopic environmentalists would not see the perspective of conservation through control and such action would thus not be politically popular.
Ashdown forest is like walking on last years dried grass at the mo.


“In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees”

 

[MrEd]

By no means an expert and no direct experience in the UK but in a past life, I found myself responsible for fire control on a large chunk of remote but environmentally sensitive African bush.

The regime there was to ensure that each part of the Park (about twice the size of the Brecon Beacons), was subjected to a controlled burn once every three years to ensure that the build up of dry combustible material was minimised. Controlled burns took place at the start of the dry season at a point where the bush would burn with a little encouragement using a witches brew of diesel and petrol but it was not so hot, dry and windy that things would get out of control - at least that is the theory.

Before the controlled burn, gangs of labourers would clear fire breaks around economically and ecologically sensitive areas and where appropriate do limited controlled burns to increase the protection.

Then the fun started - a patchwork of areas fitting in with the plan of work done in previous years were ignited using special “watering cans” containing the fuel and the resulting fire was monitored and where necessary beaten to keep it under control until it burnt itself out against a fire break or some natural feature. The expression “controlled burn” is a relative term and it can look quite dramatic and when the fire brigade consists of very brave local labourers most of whom are barefoot or wearing just flip flops and the equipment is just basic fire beaters or tree branches it does feel like it is being done on a wing and a prayer.

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Once the preparations had been done, it was just a case of sitting back and waiting until the height of the dry season when the dryness, heat and strong winds will mean that any fires would be much more intense spread like - well you know! The source of the fires could be lightning strikes, poachers (the re-growth of green shoots after a fire attracts wildlife) or just accidents. It was quite stressful constantly scanning the horizon for smoke, and then deciding if where and when to try to tackle it.

View attachment 52582

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The worst fire was caused by a slightly confused old lady crossing the Park In a bus or lorry who got off and lit a small fire by the roadside to cook a maize cob - within half an hour the fire was bigger than a football pitch and we were still damping down three weeks later. We stopped the fire with a backburn less than 50 metres from a very expensive wooden safari lodge. For a few hours I really regretted not getting the request not to do a controlled burn around it earlier in the year (because the charred ground would look unsightly) from the people responsible for it confirmed in writing!

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An exhilarating experience which we got through with no loss of life or limb but not one I would ever want to repeat in such a remote location with no back up and only the medical supplies I carried in the back of my Landy. However, the consensus from those who claimed to know about these things was that everything had been a great success, the wild fires that had happened were much less intense due to work done in previous years and that the regeneration and expansion of ecologically important forest areas was continuing.

Controlled burning is not without its critics but the counter argument is that, at least in an African context, is that bushfires will occur anyway and by intervening and choosing the time of the burn, the intensity of the fires is reduced and the damage reduced.

The rapid regeneration after a fire suggests that most plant species are adapted to the cycle of fires, but watching vultures and storks picking through a still smoking landscape looking for a cooked meal is a bit apocalyptic.

I’m sure that nature in the UK can cope with wildfires although damage caused by fires which gets down into centuries old layers of peat is not going to be repaired quickly.

What a fantastic post, thanks.

The was a heathland fire near me a couple of summers ago, I was amazed at how much the vegetation regenerated in a very short time afterwards, and a couple of years on the only things that show there was a fire are the burnt remains of human impact (fence posts and finger post signs etc).

I was stunned at how vigorously it recovered, and in an amazingly short space of time

 

[Robson Valley]

Mother Nature = Taiga expects fire every 70-100 years here. So do us people.
The pine tree cones cannot open without fire (serotinous).
Controlled burns are very commonplace here to reduce fuel loads and direct "potential" fires.
Burnng a so-called "fire guard" which is 400m wide is no big deal.

As you all are pointing out, landscape regeneration is not only rapid but also most welcomed by all sorts of wildlife.
Keep it green and the landscape becomes turgid and bloated (proven ecological fact). See for yourselves.

 

[Darryl of Sussex]

The arguments in favour of controlled burns are ancient and well evidenced. What are the arguments against controlled burns? Those that I can think of, I find to be very short-sighted and emotive.


“In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees”

 

[Janne]

Not all biotypes fare well after burning.
In Scandinavia forest fires are/ can be devastating.
I know of one very large area in the north that burnt in the late 1800’. First they removed all timber, then burnt it well to create pasture land
It is still only covered with a very few types of low bushes, Alder mainly, Lingon berry bushes, some small areas of low Birch trees.
The top soil in general is gone. Areas of water erosion.

It taught the Swedish forest industry not to damage the topsoil, not to clearcut and to replant.
Knowledge common in Europe since a half Millenia.

Slash and burn was a common tech for the immigrant poor Finns to Sweden to live. The thus created fields could only be used for a few years before they had to move on.
They could return and do it again after around 30 years and do the same, burning the bushes and sowing into the ashes.

Straw and dry potato bushes used to be burned on the fields. But modern agricultural methods seems to be better, with modern fertilizers.

 

[Janne]

I hope Ashdown Forest gets rejuvenated, it is a lovely area to walk in.
Used to walk our dog there weekly when we lived in Crowborough.

 

[Robson Valley]

You cannot deny the existence of seral stages of succession.
No, your landscape will not jump up to your favorite forest, overnight.
The fact is, you will see a predictable series of plant communities, each replaceing the previous.
You can even guess how old the fire was from the species composition of the current plant community.
Yes, you can expect the animal community to change with the changing plant community. Fact, as you expect.

How long, then, does it take for the climax community to appear after a fire in the UK?

Canada harvests and replants millions of trees every year like carrots or wheat.
The crop cycle is about 60 years for "merchantable" timber.
That's why Scandi places buy Canadian bleached kraft paper pulp as it's the best in the world.
I wonder just how many air-dried tons of Cannabis are grown evey month here.

 

[Nomad64]

The arguments in favour of controlled burns are ancient and well evidenced. What are the arguments against controlled burns? Those that I can think of, I find to be very short-sighted and emotive.

This thread seems to confusing/conflating a number of different issues.

Stubble burning by farmers has been banned since the mid-1990s.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/1366/contents/made

The reasons were the nuisance caused by smoke to residents (the character of many “rural” communities, particularly those in the Home Counties has changed considerably since the war), disruption of traffic, damage to hedgerows, trees etc. The increased concern about air quality means that it is unlikely to make a comeback although some farmers argue that, done properly, burning stubble is more eco friendly as it reduces the needs for herbicides and pesticides to kill weeds and insects that would be controlled by fire and less diesel ploughing stubble in.

The ban on burning stubble has nothing to do with the fire in Ashdown Forest.

Controlled burning of scrub is permitted during the winter months although a permit is required for larger burns.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/heather-and-grass-burning-apply-for-a-licence

They do apparently do controlled burns in Ashdown Forest.

https://www.ashdownforest.org/management/heathland/burning.php

An area like Ashdown Forest will have a management plan drawn up with involvement of relevant agencies and will inevitably be a compromise between the different aims and objectives and available budget, but controlled burning does seem to be part of it.

It is perhaps simplistic for a Green Party politician to suggest that the fires are down to climate change but whether what is going on is weather or climate and if things are changing whether that is down to man or nature, it is all a bit weird and given the choice, I’d side with her rather than the orange buffoon who thinks that snow proves that climate change is a myth and we all should rake our forests “like the Finns do”.

FWIW, controlled burning has nothing to do with slash and burn and deforestation - it is intended to achieve precisely opposite by clearing the build up of tinderlike dead material in the understory by burning at a time of year when any damage to living trees will be superficial rather than waiting for wildfires which will burn the trees themselves. Where I was working, the tangible effect of controlled burning had been to allow small pockets of ecologically important trees to expand and join up.

 

[Janne]

Maybe it is wrong of me to say, but I hope the burning will get rid of some of the gorse and bracken.

What has an anti Pres Trump vid to do here? Is he buying East Sussex National?

 

[Woody girl]

I think the video is to illustrate how little real knowledge the orator realy has on the subject. Anyone who has worked in woodland and forestry put your hands up if you have ever seen a bunch of people with rakes in their hands raking hundreds of acres of forest floor..... brash and windrows in managed areas are made to help the diversity of insect life that is vital for for the forest to flourish successfully . Managed burning of small areas does little damage and yes will clear areas of undergrowth that could present a fire hazard and regenerate the area for diversity. These large unmanaged fires can cause untold damage perhaps for instance burning alive hibernating dormice. Yes it will regenerate eventualy but it takes many years for trees to regrow. Not a couple of seasons as in heathland. There is as far as I'm aware no controlled burning of mature trees. Burning gorse and bracken in a managed way or swaling as we call it here is a different thing entirely from a forest fire.

 

[Janne]

We should not care how little or much the orator knows.
Politics are not the thing on this forum....
Just my Penny’s worth....

Re bracken and gorse: I hated those. I think they take over too much.
I prefer other plants. But that is just me.....