Copper based "anti rot" treatment (s) applied to army issue Millbank bags....

[Sullivan Drystone]

Having done a search and skim reading the results list (I didn't read the entirety of every thread that mentioned millbank bags) it seems that the questions I'm about to ask hasn't been covered yet. Apologies in advance if they have.
My first question is- when did the copper based anti rot/mildew treatment applied to the fabric of British Army miillbank bags stop being used?

I bought one (with no knowledge of this/these treatment(s) and have read since,that there are (potential) toxicity concerns.....and that these led to a) the end of their being issued
b)they returned to issue after the treatment(s) were either removed or improved (I've forgotten the source of this info,but I do remember this point wasn't clear).
I also read that now they are no longer issued,but for other reasons (that I also remember went unspecified).
My second question is - the bag was issued in 2003,from it's pristine (aside from a name in permie marker ink) condition I can only assume it has hardly been used,so is it,from the date,issued after the toxicity concerns had been addressed and therefore safe to use?
All and any light anyone can shed on this would be of great help and enormously appreciated.
Many Thanks in advance,
Jamie

 

[Falstaff]

News to me but
I found an article that there was an awareness in 1990 that some biocides were not as safe as previously thought, and new ones needed to be found. http://fungus.org.uk/nwfg/rot.htm.
I would have thought that by 2003 they would have come up with either something safer or stopped using any treatment at all.
I see the Bushcraft Store mentions this, and that the fabric in their bags is made by the same original firm. Presumably if you find out who that firm is, you can ask them. If so, please let the forum know.

 

[Sullivan Drystone]

Hi Falstaff,thanks for your reply, the link and additional info. I will of course post any relevant (hopefully definitive) info I get on the forum. No good keeping it to myself,as the esteemed Kool Moe Dee once said "Knowledge is King"!!

 

[Sullivan Drystone]

I just remembered the manufacturer is identified on one of the labels on the bag,along with the nato stock number!
They are called "J & S Franklin Ltd" I shall try finding their contact info and asking them.
Will report back any and all useful info....

 

[Sullivan Drystone]

Well,progress of sorts....just called J&S Franklin Ltd and spoke to a nice chap called Paul. He asked if I can send a photo of the label (that has the date of manufacture and nato stock number [NSN] on it ) and he will get back to me after the Easter Bank Holidays are away. So hopefully on Tuesday I will have some more information.

 

[MrEd]

Blimey my Millbank bag is so old it doesn’t have a nato stock number. I am sure it is wartime dated, will dig it out and check.
Used it so much all the toxins are probably gone by now!!!

 

[Falstaff]

By chance I'm slightly ahead of you, as I found a link via the Ray Mears Blog. I received a prompt reply from Rupert Brown who "restored" the Millbank bag to the market; herewith;

Thanks for your email and for the kind feedback on the Brown bags, much appreciated.

No problem, I am fortunate to still work with the original mill that wove the Millbank canvas. I had access to all the specs and haz chem info on the original canvas. Cuprammonium is a fungicide that is found in a lot of products including things like fence/shed preserviving paints. CA was added at a rate of 1.0-1.5% of the finished fabric. It was added to the canvas as a fungicide to help prevent mould and mildew forming on on the bags if they were stored wet or damp. It was removed towards the end of production around 2006-2010 due to it being potentially harmful.

The Brown bags have no rot proof treatment as I don't want to risk adding harmful chemicals, it is environmentally cleaner as well. I try and make it clear that it is important that when you are finished with the Brown bag it is important to wash inside and out with clean water and dry thouroughly before storage. To date I haven't had any problems. If you need to reply to the forum please feel free to tag me as supplying the info.

I'm sorry I can't offer wild camping places. The site I use is private and heavily controlled by the owner.

I hope that helps. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Best regards

Rupert Brown t/a Brown's Bushcraft

 

[Sullivan Drystone]

Smashing!
That's a very comprehensive and authoritative answer.
Shame for my 2003 bag......Oh well. I thought I had water sorted (bag,then boil/bag then chemical or bag then grayl or similar-depending on circumstances).
Now I will have to consider whether to get another bag with a later,safer issue date or stick with mine and invest in,or rather give myself an excuse to invest in a secondary,pathogen (0.02 micron) removal system that deals also with heavy metals......
Interesting to contrast one man's enthusiasm,knowledge and willingness to share it,,with the less nimble big company,where the knowledge is there,but harder to find and it's responsiveness can be heavily influenced by timing/constrained by statute ie : the bank holiday.
Thanks Falstaff!!

 

[TLM]

Read this with interest and did some Ging; result more confused: cuprammonium was used in large quantities for making viscose fiber and apparently still is used in undergarments. Also got results that copper treated fabrics are used in pillow covers. Various copper compounds have been used in treating fabrics, packing material and wood.

So a question for the resident chemist, what is this about?

 

[Danceswithhelicopters]

It's worth remembering that these things weren't added for giggles back in the day. The problems from fungal growth outweighed the risk from the fungicide. These were military and expedition items and risk managed accordingly.

 

[Falstaff]

Yes, did some seaching myself, initially confusing. A powdered version has been used for a long while in making fabrics, but a new water based liquid formulation was patented by BP in 1978. This is the mix used as a general fungicide wash for fences etc, and added to fabrics like canvas to prevent mildew and mould.

It appears that it took advances in science, specifically nanotechnology, to catch up and recognise the health risks. The earliest research papers I have seen referenced were in the early 2000's, so the MOD or manufacturer reacted fairly promptly.

Interestingly, most of the research seems to have been driven by a concern about the increasing levels of environmental copper/metals usage/pollution at a nano-level: "development of nanotechnology and subsequent applications has increased the exposure of nanoparticles (NPs) to the environment and human beings. The occurrence of NPs in the environment is of great significance regarding their impact on human health, hence nanotechnology coined with toxicology give rise to new term ‘nanotoxicology’."

So much for the wonders of modern tech & industry, and no way to avoid it. - since these NP's seem to affect the key soft organs of the body I personally suspect they lie at the root of a lot of the increases in cancers, infertility, birth/child health and other ills.

 

[MrEd]

That’s quite a big assumption step there.

 

[Falstaff]

That’s quite a big assumption step there.

yeess, just my pet theory/suspicion, but when a lot of specific science specialists are all coming up with seperate research results and they all show harm to the body, I tend to think there's something in it. But yes, I might well be wrong.