Damn, but I I love farmers

[Glow_worm]

Some people would see me as poor. I wouldn't go back to being a well paid consultant for all the money there is.

Sounds a wonderful way to be, I sort of come from a similar place but my life is the reverse- towards the end of an engineering degree I decided I wanted to become as self sufficient as possible and make a simple living from traditional crafts. Somehow I've just about managed that way of life, but I'm now at the point where I'd like to start a viable and profitable business in small-scale old fashioned mixed farming as a demonstration piece that it can be done. If I can sort my health issues out, and once the current house restoration is done....

 

[haptalaon]

Was he hard done by? It depends how you look at it. He never paid for food or any mains services. The solid fuel range could be fed with logs. His rent was £6 a year and went uncollected for decades. He had the option for a more modern life and didn't want it..Poverty is a relative term. Many people in rural areas had low wages. But if you had no bills for rent, services or food that's not such a big deal.

To me, this sounds quite unusual as a picture of historic rural life. Most labourers paid rent, and did not have access to a large amount of land to grow all their own food, and did not have free access to wood. In some parts of the country medieval laws banning ordinary people from taking branches from the local forest have only just been repealed. Access to common land was also restricted from the medieval period onwards, causing people to work for landlords rather than themselves, with all the insecurity that brings.

They exchanged their time for a wage, like any employee, but with no minimum wage or guaranteed hours or even a guaranteed job. The history of the countryside is one of people moving into towns, especially post the industrial revolution, because the work dried up, poverty was so grinding and unsustainable people thought they'd have a better chance elsewhere. People born into that life would have no chance to buy the land they worked, and thereby live rent free raising their own crops.

It's not about access to mod cons, I wouldn't describe living without electricity or darning your own socks or living on a homestead as poverty. Living paycheck to paycheck with no security of tenure or job security is poverty, ie the systemic stuff you can't opt out of.

 

[British Red]

People born into that life would have no chance to buy the land they worked, and thereby live rent free raising their own crops.
.

I don't know what part of the countryside you grew up in or the rural skills that you practice but it sounds to me like you've been reading books with some hard left axe to grind .

I know lots of people who's Dad or Grandad bought land in the 60s 70s or 80s. Of course the industrial revolution changed farming. It condemned many to the shorter, nastier lives in cities (still true to this dayl). It wasn't a violent change though. This land was worked with heavy horses until 1950.

Now one thing I will agree is that current policies will kill the small eco-friendly farm. The time to experience the family farm is now. Almost all will be gone in a generation.

 

[Glow_worm]

Now one thing I will agree is that current policies will kill the small eco-friendly farm. The time to experience the family farm is now. Almost all will be gone in a generation.

I hope the opposite might be true, the end of farmland as tax avoidance might allow more newcomers to get a foot on the farming ladder. The land ownership situation in this country needs a huge shakeup, something drastic needs to happen...

 

[Chris]

I think there’s merit to both ways of life, and perhaps one which can be achieved with balance.

For example the fact that ‘city’ jobs can now be done remotely, means that it’s not outside the realms of possibility that one could live with some of the benefits of both. Work a few days a week remotely for the big bucks and spend the rest of your time removing the leash that higher incomes create through self sufficiency.

Personally I’d love to be able to end the corporate job, but that would also require my wife to be willing/want to live a different lifestyle, which really isn’t her bag. So in all likelihood if I manage to reach a better place, it’ll be something like I’ve described rather than either of the extremes.

 

[British Red]

I hope the opposite might be true, the end of farmland as tax avoidance might allow more newcomers to get a foot on the farming ladder. The land ownership situation in this country needs a huge shakeup, something drastic needs to happen...

Not a chance. The field opposite my gate is big enough to mean that it would qualify for the land tax. One field. But it would never generate enough income to pay that tax every generation. The only way farms could work would be ever larger factory farms worked on an industrial economy of scale.

 

[Glow_worm]

My point entirely- that field is in the wrong hands if it isn't profitable. It would be better off divided into two mixed holdings working it much more intensively (intensive in a positive sense, i.e. heavy levels of stock for maximum muck and fertility). I'm sure there are plenty of people who could come up with a profitable business model based on demands of the local area.

 

[British Red]

My point entirely- that field is in the wrong hands if it isn't profitable. It would be better off divided into two mixed holdings working it much more intensively (intensive in a positive sense, i.e. heavy levels of stock for maximum muck and fertility). I'm sure there are plenty of people who could come up with a profitable business model based on demands of the local area.

I'm not. Very few smallholdings make money from agriculture. Certainly not enough to pay a vast sum every 30 years. So much simply is driven by scale. Cereal crops are a great example. You can't make money unless you harvest with a combine. For a combine to run efficiently it needs enormous fields (and costs many hundreds of thousands of pounds). Peas are worse, pea harvesters break a million.

 

[Glow_worm]

I maintain the 1970s 12' cut combine on a local 250 acre farm, a machine which has a value of less than my annual outgoings (skint peasant). They make good very good money! Crops are spelt and longstraw wheats which are tolerant to droughg and floods and do well when modern varieties fail. They command a premium, being highly nutritious and head to the health food market or local craft bakeries rather than supplying factories which make highly processed baked rubbish from wheat. Then there are peas and beans and sometimes barley for livestock feed, and various green manures.

The fields are 20 acres or less, and even in these the arable is divided up by rows of trees (agroforestry) which provide firewood, nuts and fruit used in beverages.

If anything, the 250 acres is too large for the current level of stock which provides the muck. The farm would likely be more profitable- due to the greater intensity- if it were half that size or less.

It's not alone, the next farm is a small organic livestock concern. There's another agroforestry establishment down the road from me.

Scale is necessary if you are supplying the mainstream food supply chain with poor quality produce from, frankly, abused land. The profit margins are tiny. There are plenty of ways to run a genuinely profitable and ethical business on a smaller scale, I could list many others locally that do.

 

[Stew]

Going back to the start of the thread, it’s great to see neighbours being neighbourly but popping to Morrisons yesterday, I cringed a bit at this banner:

I’m not rich but I’m not poor. I’m ok. I can afford food and shouldn’t have to only pay 10p one of those. I don’t believe the farmer is getting a good deal . I know that part of this being so cheap is to entice you in to buy other produce at the same time but if I’m right, it’s not the supermarket that bears the brunt on ‘the deal’.

I would almost say this is embarrassing but would also admit that if I had storage space left I would have been popping back in to buy a load of soup supplies!

 

[British Red]

Scale is necessary if you are supplying the mainstream food supply chain with poor quality produce from, frankly, abused land. The profit margins are tiny. There are plenty of ways to run a genuinely profitable and ethical business on a smaller scale, I could list many others locally that do.

I agree, we do it but these things are niche. As you acknowledge they do not address the need to feed a population of 70,000,000+. I agree with the aims of small, mixed farms but the current laws will price them out of the market. Even 50 acres here breaks £1,000,000.

Unless we address over population, massive industrialisation will continue & pricing out smaller farmers will accelerate it

 

[Glow_worm]

Unless we address over population, massive industrialisation will continue & pricing out smaller farmers will accelerate it

Got it in one! We can't feed the population sustainably. Ultimately nature will put a stop to unsustainable farming if the population issue isn't addressed. In the meantime very small scale stuff has to be the answer for those in the know, and with any luck land prices will fall as the Clarksons of farming get denied their tax dodge.

 

[Chris]

Living up the North of (very rural) Lincolnshire, I think it’s been similar to my experiences in small villages in Cambridgeshire and Yorkshire - people look after each other. I know no one down my road will be alone or going hungry for Christmas.

My wife and I don’t have kids, and it’s hard to find some things in portions just for me and her, especially as she doesn’t eat much in volume. I still love the leftovers on Boxing Day so I’ve bought enough for probably 6 or 8 people (try finding a small ‘ham for two’!), and anything more than we need will go to other people who can make use of it down the road.

I do honestly believe that we are not evolved to live in big homogeneous lumps in cities, rather we thrive in small communities.

 

[Glow_worm]

I do honestly believe that we are not evolved to live in big homogeneous lumps in cities, rather we thrive in small communities.

Well, we've been human for 300000 years upwards depending on definition, small scale farmers in small communities for over 12000 years, and living in an industrialised society for 250. No surprise we haven't evolved to adapt yet, and physical and mental health problems result.

We've had pre-industrial civilisations before, with lots of people artificially crammed into a small area. The clue is they aren't here anymore!

 

[Tony]

Quite the reverse from the people I know who lived rural lives. People now work far longer hours & in many ways are much worse off.

This is our cottage

The Cottage by English Countrylife, on Flickr

It goes back to early Georgian times (1700s) for certain but the bricks are older.

Now it didn't of course have mains (anything) at the point of this photo 100 years ago. It didn't have mains electricity until well into my lifetime (1968 it became available).

The Redoubtable lady in front of the door is Lucy Cook. She lived in a two room wriggly tin building which still has a slab in our field...........................

Some people would see me as poor. I wouldn't go back to being a well paid consultant for all the money there is.

Love this history Red, thanks for sharing it

 

[British Red]

Love this history Red, thanks for sharing it

It's a funny old place this part of the country Tony. Not even a bit "clannish", very welcoming to those who want to live a country life but people rarely leave. It's almost like an oral tradition, people will tell you stories about places and people some of which go back hundreds of years. It's fascinating. Was sat in someone's house examining original hand drawn maps of the area from 1800s. We suspect the drafts for the original Ordinance Survey!

 

[Glow_worm]

It's a part of the world with a very rich agricultural history, and some amazing soils! Sadly they come with flatness, otherwise I'd be tempted

 

[British Red]

It's a part of the world with a very rich agricultural history, and some amazing soils! Sadly they come with flatness, otherwise I'd be tempted

Unbelievably flat but very affordable. Cottages still fall down abandoned here

 

[Glow_worm]

Yes, derelict Victorian cottages and empty glasshouses! What potential!

 

[GreyCat]

Going back to the start of the thread, it’s great to see neighbours being neighbourly but popping to Morrisons yesterday, I cringed a bit at this banner:

I’m not rich but I’m not poor. I’m ok. I can afford food and shouldn’t have to only pay 10p one of those. I don’t believe the farmer is getting a good deal . I know that part of this being so cheap is to entice you in to buy other produce at the same time but if I’m right, it’s not the supermarket that bears the brunt on ‘the deal’.

I would almost say this is embarrassing but would also admit that if I had storage space left I would have been popping back in to buy a load of soup supplies!

Yes and I bet that a lot of that cheap veg will end up being wasted, I reckon that in many cases, it's only on the table because "we must have it for Christmas" rather than because anyone wants to actually eat it......

There's an argument that food is too cheap and land is way too expensive. Basic foodstuffs (veg, flour etc) are indeed very cheap when you realise the effort of growing.

It's 2 different groups: the arable farmers who have to please the supermarkets, then there's big farm estates which have fully controlled storage for a whole harvest.

The latter bunch are not that worried about price of inputs..... in 2022-2023 I did some cutting edge drone development work for "smart farming" (multispectral imaging to 2cm/pixel, fly 50Ha with 100% coverage in 35 min, then use the real time data to inform treatment instead of drenching everything in herbicide or pesticide). Proof of concept working with a big farm estate was very good, but they were not interested in paying to buy the service as they just harvest, store and then sell when the price rises. Nor could we get grant funding as we'd been too successful..... and not "innovative" enough..... At which point I wrote off the development investment and put my time to more productive use.

The farmers who have to please the supermarkets on the other hand have a torrid time.

I suspect there is a case for low-input mix farming- combined with lower food waste and a different attitude to food (less food of better quality). Certainly the Wakelyn experiments with diverse wheat and agroforestry are interesting, as is the work by the places that Hodemedods buys from and of course the regenerative livestock farming approach trialled in the west of the country where you ain't gonna ever grow cereals no matter what the extreme anti meat brigade think, the west of the country grows cattle/sheep and some types of veg......

As for food prices: mostly folk are paying for the processing. Eating less food of better quality is healthier for us and for the land- but not for the big corporations who influence all govt policy.

GC