A Warning Re Quikclot
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Do what you want mate, you can pour vinegar on your wounds if you want, just dont use that stuff on anyone but yourself. It's neither the best stuff to use, nor the right stuff to use. It's designed as a field expedient treatment for severe ballistic wounds in a combat theatre and for that particular context it works well - in so far as it'll get the cas back into the fight for a bit longer. But unless you are a combat soldier, it doesnt apply to you and it certainly doesnt apply to anyone you might think of "helping" with it.
Martyn, I am a trained health care professional and I will use my own judgement when applying first aid to myself, my family, and indeed anyone else. The title of this thread is "A Warning Re Quikclot" and advises not to use their granulated products which many people on this board own, so your accusations of irresponsibility are kind of weird.
You're trolling, and all this drama doesn't impress me.
You're trolling, and all this drama doesn't impress me.
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I suppose now is not a good time to mention I've used superglue in the past.....
I think super glue was invented around ww2 time specifically for binding wounds together fast..hence why it works so damn well on our fingers.
K
Kuvakei
Guest
Given that Celox/Quickclot/Other homeostatic agents are used in the treatment of catastrophic bleeds, that T1 'cas' will not be doing much by the way of fighting, you'll be lucky if they're still conscious by the time the celox has set and you've written up your ATMIST report.
Homeostatic agents, like many things morphine, cpr etc are a tool, applied incorrectly or by the untrained they can be dangerous however I do and will continue to carry Celox in my fac, it weighs sod all and could make all the difference, if not to me then for someone else whom I'm sure would be quite grateful of the expense.
I think super glue was invented around ww2 time specifically for binding wounds together fast..hence why it works so damn well on our fingers.
I made that discovery purely by accident, back when I was a young teenage slave to the wares of the dreaded 'Games Workshop', I'd nicked my finger while trying to trim mould likens of a model while gluing it together, and hey presto! i've been keeping it in my bushie 1st aid kit since but have only had to use it once in anger- oddly enough I split the back of my hand open while trying to put a bike chain back on... no craziness with sharps I'm afraid lol
I think super glue was invented around ww2 time specifically for binding wounds together fast..hence why it works so damn well on our fingers.
Yes right time frame but wast invented for wounds.
ATB
Duncan
from tapatalk phone
Interesting thread, as someone who often uses a carving axe when there is no one else is around it has given me something to think about. I had a cut recently (poor knife use and hasty working)
which bled a lot and would not allow the application of steristrips, too wet. A tad worse and it would have been a problem on my own
which bled a lot and would not allow the application of steristrips, too wet. A tad worse and it would have been a problem on my own
Heard the problem about it being a nightmare to get off at the other end.
Do wonder what you are surposed to do if you cut something major in the middle of nowhere? No idea what the call out time is, but if you got ten minutes to live, think something like the Celox could keep your rear end alive.
Do wonder what you are surposed to do if you cut something major in the middle of nowhere? No idea what the call out time is, but if you got ten minutes to live, think something like the Celox could keep your rear end alive.
EdS
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
generally, if you are on your own and in a situation where you need one of the powders - you are likely to die anyway as :
a) unlikely you can self admis=nister
b) your not going to able to raise help.
In the UK with someone else present you are bette of with direct pressure method - or in worst cast tourniquet (if used correctly). As thse things are not NHS approved you are going to make problems for yourself as its gonig to make the ambulance crews job harder - to your detriment, and you are gonig to have to deal with a very peed of doctor or even worse A&E ward sister/staff nurse.
a) unlikely you can self admis=nister
b) your not going to able to raise help.
In the UK with someone else present you are bette of with direct pressure method - or in worst cast tourniquet (if used correctly). As thse things are not NHS approved you are going to make problems for yourself as its gonig to make the ambulance crews job harder - to your detriment, and you are gonig to have to deal with a very peed of doctor or even worse A&E ward sister/staff nurse.
I respectfully disagree with these assertions:
* Haemostatic agents can and have been self administered
* Celox products are available from the NHS Supply Chain. Therefore they are approved.
* Applying haemostatic products topically to an arterial or central venous bleed is less risky than applying a tourniquet. Tourniquets are really very dangerous, and should only be used by someone who knows what they're doing, or if you simply have no other option - i.e. you're going to die.
* Doctors and nurses like patients they can work on as opposed to ones that turn up in their emergency department already dead, regardless of what methods they employ to stay that way. Traumatic injuries which warrants the use of such products are usually going to need to be debrided and/or otherwise surgically corrected anyway. Some surgeons who are unfamiliar with new pre-hospital care technologies may get their knickers in a twist over their use, but that probably reflects a certain amount of conservatism on their part to embrace new ideas.
While researching the topic for this thread, I have come to the conclusion that all granulated haemostatic products should be avoided. The impregnated gauze products seem to be easier to apply, easier to remove and have less complications than granulated ones.
Having said that - DIRECT PRESSURE TO THE BLEEDING SITE IS THE FIRST LINE INTERVENTION. Haemostatic agents should only be used in serious bleeds. If direct pressure to the site doesn't work, or an arterial bleed is pumping blood all over the place - then it's a survival situation, and no one has ever been penalised for trying their best to save someone's life when they're definitely going to die without intervention.
http://www.ramcjournal.com/2009/dec09/lawton.pdf
http://www.closeprotectionworld.co.uk/medic-forum/35694-haemostatics-catastrophic-haemorrhage.html
All the best
I'd rather be alive enough to be later berated by irate medical staff for using inappropriate treatments than dead because I didn't, and under those circumstances I dare say I wouldn't give a fig whether I administered the 'treatment' myself or some other kind soul did it for me.
Desperate times sometimes call for desperate measures....
Desperate times sometimes call for desperate measures....
Barry, not everything the army does is necessarily the best practice or necessarily in the best interests of their soldiers/casualties. For example, when securing an airway, the tongue often gets in the way. It used to be common practice for army medics to carry a suture for the purpose of sewing their tongues to their bottom lip in order to keep it out of the way. Nothing essentially wrong with that, it's just an expedient way of dealing with a problem. In civvi street, we use an OP airway and always have. You've heard of gulf war syndrome right? The long term problems that are allegedly the result of taking around a dozen experimental vaccines? That may or may not have foundation, but just because they gave those vaccines to soldiers, doesnt necessarily mean it's a good idea for you to give them to yourself.
Army medicine is highly specific for highly specific circumstances, with acceptable trade-offs for expedience and convenience. While the kit often seems cool or ally, the protocols and practices dont always translate into the best practice for civilian medicine. Take it or leave it mate, but it has nothing to do with upsetting backwards thinking surgeons - and Ed is absolutely right, if by chance you do get your legs blown off by an IED while bushcrafting in the Lakes, you'll be dead before you can get your haemostatic agents out of your FAK.
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to counteract that threat i have a team of 10 ferrets on extended leashes moving in formation in front of me
(cheaper option than the granules or the pad)
The point I was trying to make is simply that, if things really were that bad, you could use a bone-through-the-nose or eye of newt and wing of bat approach if it got me out the other end still breathing.
I am not arguing for or against in favour of a particular product or of the military's methods.
In the early nineties I was in Holland for several months working and two of us were wandering around Amsterdam sightseeing when a down-and-out went under a tram. I've seen some nasty accidents with the mountain rescue team when I was younger but they are still relatively standard fodder; the kind you would expect. In this instance the guy was either drunk, high or both and his legs were severed just above the knee when the tram rolled over them.
That was the longest 10 minutes of my life (his too I imagine) and all we could do was use our belts as a crude tourniquet and T shirts to staunch the blood. He squealed and screamed like a stuck pig the entire time until the ambulance crew arrived and we looked like we'd just run amok in a slaughterhouse.
I doubt that any standard kit we might have had in other circumstances might have helped in such an extreme case, but the point still stands that sometimes, almost anything can be acceptable if it doesn't decrease the chance of casualty survival.
I'm not a medical expert or professional (only ever did St John's and various emergency courses) but I have a deep seated interest in the preservation of my own life and the lives of those around me by any means necessary or possible. I am guessing this goes for the majority who probably care less about the treatment and how it was administered than coming out the other end still breathing.
I am not arguing for or against in favour of a particular product or of the military's methods.
In the early nineties I was in Holland for several months working and two of us were wandering around Amsterdam sightseeing when a down-and-out went under a tram. I've seen some nasty accidents with the mountain rescue team when I was younger but they are still relatively standard fodder; the kind you would expect. In this instance the guy was either drunk, high or both and his legs were severed just above the knee when the tram rolled over them.
That was the longest 10 minutes of my life (his too I imagine) and all we could do was use our belts as a crude tourniquet and T shirts to staunch the blood. He squealed and screamed like a stuck pig the entire time until the ambulance crew arrived and we looked like we'd just run amok in a slaughterhouse.
I doubt that any standard kit we might have had in other circumstances might have helped in such an extreme case, but the point still stands that sometimes, almost anything can be acceptable if it doesn't decrease the chance of casualty survival.
I'm not a medical expert or professional (only ever did St John's and various emergency courses) but I have a deep seated interest in the preservation of my own life and the lives of those around me by any means necessary or possible. I am guessing this goes for the majority who probably care less about the treatment and how it was administered than coming out the other end still breathing.
I have the heamostatic sponges (quick clot), I mainly carry these as I like to use very sharp objects in remote locations.
I have had some near misses in areas that would have proved problematic for a 10 minute recovery. After each of these situations I have reviewed why it happened and then had a strong word with myself! I still like to have something on me that can increase my chances if I do slip up, I understand some of the views raised here but if it increases my chances I really dont give a monkeys about what the surgeon is going to think, it is important t use in the appropreate situation. Im not going to apply it to a non "gushing" wound
I have had some near misses in areas that would have proved problematic for a 10 minute recovery. After each of these situations I have reviewed why it happened and then had a strong word with myself! I still like to have something on me that can increase my chances if I do slip up, I understand some of the views raised here but if it increases my chances I really dont give a monkeys about what the surgeon is going to think, it is important t use in the appropreate situation. Im not going to apply it to a non "gushing" wound